roy haynes' flat ride

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Jack Butler

2005-01-25 13:48:00 UTC

well i know roy used a blue label 602 flat on "now he sings...", but
was it an 18 or a 20? i'm using an 18 and it just doesn't seem to have
the power. are those blue label 602s pretty heavy? maybe i'll try to
track one down...

Jack Butler

O-Lugs

2005-01-25 17:19:12 UTC

Permalink

Post by Jack Butler
well i know roy used a blue label 602 flat on "now he sings...", but
was it an 18 or a 20? i'm using an 18 and it just doesn't seem to have
the power. are those blue label 602s pretty heavy? maybe i'll try to
track one down...
Jack Butler

18"

O-Lugs

2005-01-25 17:20:12 UTC

Permalink

O-Lugs

2005-01-25 17:20:12 UTC

Permalink

O-Lugs

2005-01-25 18:04:36 UTC

Permalink

18"

O-Lugs

2005-01-25 18:05:24 UTC

Permalink

O-Lugs

2005-01-25 18:13:47 UTC

Permalink

O-Lugs

2005-01-25 18:14:59 UTC

Permalink

O-Lugs

2005-01-25 18:15:08 UTC

Permalink

David

2005-01-25 18:16:31 UTC

Permalink

I'm pretty sure it was an 18", too.

Let us know if you find one. I'm really dying to get my hands on a
decent one, too, but I'm a little apprehinsive. I'd hate for it to
stay in the cymbal bag if it's not versatile. Plus, I have a few more
things on the list before I get to a flat ride.

Cheers,
David

Glenn Dowdy

2005-01-25 18:40:09 UTC

Permalink

Post by David
I'm pretty sure it was an 18", too.

yeah, but O-lugs is _damn_ sure.

Glenn D.

Robert Schuh

2005-01-25 19:51:32 UTC

Permalink

Post by David
I'm pretty sure it was an 18", too.
Let us know if you find one. I'm really dying to get my hands on a
decent one, too, but I'm a little apprehinsive. I'd hate for it to
stay in the cymbal bag if it's not versatile. Plus, I have a few more
things on the list before I get to a flat ride.
Cheers,
David

Post by Jack Butler
well i know roy used a blue label 602 flat on "now he sings...", but
was it an 18 or a 20? i'm using an 18 and it just doesn't seem to

have

Post by Jack Butler
the power. are those blue label 602s pretty heavy? maybe i'll try

Post by Jack Butler
track one down...
Jack Butler

David,
I am selling an 18 medium Blue Label for a student, so let me know if
you are interested.

Rob

--
--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

David

2005-01-25 20:46:50 UTC

Permalink

don't. tempt. me.

:-P

David

Jack Butler

2005-01-25 20:05:35 UTC

Permalink

Post by Jack Butler
well i know roy used a blue label 602 flat on "now he sings...", but
was it an 18 or a 20? i'm using an 18 and it just doesn't seem to

have

Post by Jack Butler
the power. are those blue label 602s pretty heavy? maybe i'll try

Post by Jack Butler
track one down...
Jack Butler

i'll definitely post about it if i get one, but i think we can be
pretty sure that it will not be all that versatile. it's a very
singular sound and i don't see it working well with anything but
acoustic music.

Jack

David

2005-01-25 20:52:20 UTC

Permalink

all the more reason to have one, I guess....though the 70s "A" that I
got last year seems to be pretty versatile. Right now it's my main
ride with a cracked 19" A custom crash that sounds pretty damn amazing.

I just remember seeing one in a store when I first started playing
years ago as a kid, and I was blown away by the sight of a flat cymbal.
Then, the crusty old jack-ass behind the counter rudely said "don't
TOUCH the cymbals!"

Memories.......

David

O-Lugs

2005-01-25 18:22:34 UTC

Permalink

O-Lugs

2005-01-25 18:23:07 UTC

Permalink

Sablova

2005-01-25 20:12:12 UTC

Permalink

I had a 20 blue label 602 and it was pretty thin actually. Not much power in
it. Sold it a few years ago and never looked back. Of course, not being too up
on these things, they may have made many different models. I prefer the early
80's zildjians and sabians which are much thiker and have such an awesome tone
on tape. They are a little more gongy. This may be a good substitute. Of
course, even if you got his actual cymbal, you are not going to sound like him,
unless you used the same stick and were able to replicate his touch. You can
get close though I would imagine. I just gave up trying to sound like my heroes
long ago and always advise against it, mainly because it is a futile endeavor
in the end and usually a very expensive one too. Just my 2 cents. I guess I can
now expect the RMMP haters to send me flaming emails.

Jack Butler

2005-01-25 21:11:29 UTC

Permalink

Post by Sablova
I had a 20 blue label 602 and it was pretty thin actually. Not much power in
it. Sold it a few years ago and never looked back. Of course, not being too up
on these things, they may have made many different models. I prefer the early
80's zildjians and sabians which are much thiker and have such an awesome tone
on tape. They are a little more gongy. This may be a good substitute. Of
course, even if you got his actual cymbal, you are not going to sound like him,
unless you used the same stick and were able to replicate his touch. You can
get close though I would imagine. I just gave up trying to sound like my heroes
long ago and always advise against it, mainly because it is a futile endeavor
in the end and usually a very expensive one too. Just my 2 cents. I guess I can
now expect the RMMP haters to send me flaming emails.

i don't necessarily want to sound like roy (not that i could turn down
his talent!). one is plenty able to enjoy and even make use of other
sounds and techniques to add them to your repertoire that you use as a
whole to sound like yourself. it's just influence, not imitation.

Jack

Robert Schuh

2005-01-25 19:50:40 UTC

Permalink

Jack,
It was a medium and from what I know, a 20. Roy's was NOT a blue label
602 though. The blue label was not used until the later 70s. I have
owned a few 20" 602 mediums and they are great. I have an 18 Blue label
medium for sale for a student of mine if you are interested. There are
still plenty of people who swear it was an 18.

Rob

JR Richley

2005-01-26 02:23:44 UTC

Permalink

to the best of my understanding, Roy's flat was an ORIGINAL 602 18"
Piaste flat ride. the origianl/first run verson, not the blue label
re-issue. i am very fortuante to have the exact same cymbal, and it is
nothing short of magical. it IS the "now he sings...now he sobs / toy
shop" Roy sound.

anybody know where we can find the definetive answer to this qustion?

Post by Robert Schuh

George Lawrence

2005-01-26 03:14:28 UTC

Permalink

"anybody know where we can find the definetive answer to this qustion?"

Fell?

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
2091 Front Street
Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio 44221
website http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
email ***@georgesdrumshop.com
330 940 DRUM (3786)
toll free 866 970 0800
fax 330 940 3785

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb

Post by JR Richley
to the best of my understanding, Roy's flat was an ORIGINAL 602 18"
Piaste flat ride. the origianl/first run verson, not the blue label
re-issue. i am very fortuante to have the exact same cymbal, and it is
nothing short of magical. it IS the "now he sings...now he sobs / toy
shop" Roy sound.
anybody know where we can find the definetive answer to this qustion?

Post by Robert Schuh

Robert Schuh

2005-01-26 20:02:59 UTC

Permalink

Post by George Lawrence
"anybody know where we can find the definetive answer to this qustion?"
Fell?
--
George Lawrence
-Chinese prove

All you guys are missing the boat. Roy Haynes never played on NHSNHS. It
was Bernard Burdie. :-)

Dan Radin

2005-01-26 22:43:58 UTC

Permalink

Post by Robert Schuh
All you guys are missing the boat. Roy Haynes never played on NHSNHS. It
was Bernard Burdie. :-)

With Carbosticks and Basix drums!

Mark Polis

2005-01-26 04:19:44 UTC

Permalink

I believe Jay Epstein has the definitive answer.

From what I understand, Roy's (actually Chick's) "Now She Sings,..." flat
ride was an embossed Paiste stamp 18" flat ride (pre blue label era). I
seem to recall it thereafter becoming Barry Altschul's cymbal somehow.

We need to consult Jay for the details. He once related them all in here.
--
--
o-----« Mark Polis ***@suscom.net »-----o

"You play because you must." - drummer Tony Williams
--
--

to the best of my understanding, Roy's flat was an ORIGINAL 602 18" Piaste
flat ride. the origianl/first run verson, not the blue label re-issue. i
am very fortuante to have the exact same cymbal, and it is nothing short
of magical. it IS the "now he sings...now he sobs / toy shop" Roy sound.
anybody know where we can find the definetive answer to this qustion?

Post by Robert Schuh

Jack,
It was a medium and from what I know, a 20. Roy's was NOT a blue label
602 though. The blue label was not used until the later 70s. I have owned
a few 20" 602 mediums and they are great. I have an 18 Blue label medium
for sale for a student of mine if you are interested. There are still
plenty of people who swear it was an 18.
Rob

JR Richley

2005-01-26 07:45:28 UTC

Permalink

that is exactly what i described in my previous post, and what i am
fortunate to own as well...an embossed stamp paiste 602 original alloy
(pre blue label era) 18" flat ride.

Post by Mark Polis
I believe Jay Epstein has the definitive answer.
From what I understand, Roy's (actually Chick's) "Now She Sings,..." flat
ride was an embossed Paiste stamp 18" flat ride (pre blue label era). I
seem to recall it thereafter becoming Barry Altschul's cymbal somehow.
We need to consult Jay for the details. He once related them all in here.

Mark Polis

2005-01-26 11:11:47 UTC

Permalink

Yes, I played yours at my house, remember, JR? And it was a better sounding
one than the one I had (also an embossed stamp 18" Paiste flat which I
eventually sold off).
I couldn't pry yours out of your white knuckled grip, you wanker. >^)
--
--
o-----« Mark Polis ***@suscom.net »-----o

"You play because you must." - drummer Tony Williams
--
--

Post by JR Richley
that is exactly what i described in my previous post, and what i am
fortunate to own as well...an embossed stamp paiste 602 original alloy
(pre blue label era) 18" flat ride.

Jack Butler

2005-01-26 13:03:53 UTC

Permalink

Post by Mark Polis
seem to recall it thereafter becoming Barry Altschul's cymbal

somehow.

Post by Mark Polis
We need to consult Jay for the details. He once related them all in here.

here's what jay said in a thread in '99:

"In NY, 1974, I was studying with Barry Altschul & asked him if he ever
played the flat 18" 602 that he used w/ Chick & Anthony Braxton, since
at his place, all I ever saw were Ks. He says, "I just traded it in
last week." I immediately subway up to Frank Ippolito's drum shop &
Frank gives it to me for ~$40. It's the cymbal on all the Circle &
Corea trio stuff with Altschul. Years ago when I was working cruise
ships, I drilled 1 hole in it for a rivet & it sounds just wonderful.
I've put a LOT of 8th notes on that little sweetheart for 2.5 decades,
& it still feels great!"

and here's the link to said thread:

http://tinyurl.com/6qopk

now, the key question is whether or not barry's flat is the exact same
one as roy's. i seem to remember something about that being chick's
cymbal that he gave to all the drummers he played/recorded with in that
era. of course, he may have just had a stash of 602s, some being 18,
some 20. and of course i have exactly no way of confirming any of
this.

Jack Butler

Jay Epstein

2005-01-28 05:30:35 UTC

Permalink

Hi Jack,
A year or two after I got Barry's old 18 (in about '73-'74) I wrote to
the Paiste Company asking them when it was made & giving them the
serial #. They wrote back saying that they had it registered as
belonging to Barry, but I don't remember when they said it was made. I
think I still have the letter stashed somewhere with my old catalogs &
Wilcoxsin book. I'd assume Barry got it as an endorsor. I rarely use
it any more, it's not nearly as nice as a Bos Master Flat, but you can
hear it (along with old Ks) at:
http://www.bridgeboymusic.com/longago/main.htm

Jay

Post by Mark Polis

Post by Mark Polis
I believe Jay Epstein has the definitive answer.
From what I understand, Roy's (actually Chick's) "Now She Sings,..."

flat

Post by Mark Polis
ride was an embossed Paiste stamp 18" flat ride (pre blue label era).

Post by Mark Polis
seem to recall it thereafter becoming Barry Altschul's cymbal

somehow.

Post by Mark Polis
We need to consult Jay for the details. He once related them all in

here.
"In NY, 1974, I was studying with Barry Altschul & asked him if he ever
played the flat 18" 602 that he used w/ Chick & Anthony Braxton, since
at his place, all I ever saw were Ks. He says, "I just traded it in
last week." I immediately subway up to Frank Ippolito's drum shop &
Frank gives it to me for ~$40. It's the cymbal on all the Circle &
Corea trio stuff with Altschul. Years ago when I was working cruise
ships, I drilled 1 hole in it for a rivet & it sounds just wonderful.
I've put a LOT of 8th notes on that little sweetheart for 2.5 decades,
& it still feels great!"
http://tinyurl.com/6qopk
now, the key question is whether or not barry's flat is the exact same
one as roy's. i seem to remember something about that being chick's
cymbal that he gave to all the drummers he played/recorded with in that
era. of course, he may have just had a stash of 602s, some being 18,
some 20. and of course i have exactly no way of confirming any of
this.
Jack Butler

Jack Butler

2005-01-28 08:26:25 UTC

Permalink

hey Jay,

thanks for the information. what series/weight bos flat would you say
is most similar to the paiste?

Jack

Post by Jay Epstein
Hi Jack,
A year or two after I got Barry's old 18 (in about '73-'74) I wrote to
the Paiste Company asking them when it was made & giving them the
serial #. They wrote back saying that they had it registered as
belonging to Barry, but I don't remember when they said it was made. I
think I still have the letter stashed somewhere with my old catalogs &
Wilcoxsin book. I'd assume Barry got it as an endorsor. I rarely use
it any more, it's not nearly as nice as a Bos Master Flat, but you can
http://www.bridgeboymusic.com/longago/main.htm
Jay

Post by Mark Polis

Post by Mark Polis
I believe Jay Epstein has the definitive answer.
From what I understand, Roy's (actually Chick's) "Now She

Sings,..."

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
flat

Post by Mark Polis
ride was an embossed Paiste stamp 18" flat ride (pre blue label era).

Post by Mark Polis
seem to recall it thereafter becoming Barry Altschul's cymbal

somehow.

Post by Mark Polis
We need to consult Jay for the details. He once related them all in

wonderful.

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
I've put a LOT of 8th notes on that little sweetheart for 2.5

decades,

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
& it still feels great!"
http://tinyurl.com/6qopk
now, the key question is whether or not barry's flat is the exact same
one as roy's. i seem to remember something about that being chick's
cymbal that he gave to all the drummers he played/recorded with in that
era. of course, he may have just had a stash of 602s, some being 18,
some 20. and of course i have exactly no way of confirming any of
this.
Jack Butler

Jay Epstein

2005-01-31 20:40:40 UTC

Permalink

Hi Jack,
The Traditional Flats. In general, they're a bit thicker with more
clarity than the Masters, and with more shimmer & resonance than the
Ferit/Antiques. As for weights, that's a bit more more complicated.
The orginal 18" Paiste Flat out of the "Sound Cymbal Set" from the
late '60s was a medium weight. They didn't mark them specifically, but
I'm guessing something in Bos Trad would be close, HOWEVER, for my
tastes, I really love the thinner Masters series much more. You can
check out sounds at:
http://www.bosphoruscymbals.com
and
http://www.cymbalsonly.com/

Jay

Post by Jack Butler
hey Jay,
thanks for the information. what series/weight bos flat would you say
is most similar to the paiste?
Jack

Post by Jay Epstein
Hi Jack,

Post by Jay Epstein
the Paiste Company asking them when it was made & giving them the
serial #. They wrote back saying that they had it registered as
belonging to Barry, but I don't remember when they said it was made.

Post by Jay Epstein
think I still have the letter stashed somewhere with my old catalogs

Post by Jay Epstein
Wilcoxsin book. I'd assume Barry got it as an endorsor. I rarely use
it any more, it's not nearly as nice as a Bos Master Flat, but you

can

Post by Jay Epstein
http://www.bridgeboymusic.com/longago/main.htm
Jay

Post by Mark Polis

Post by Mark Polis
I believe Jay Epstein has the definitive answer.
From what I understand, Roy's (actually Chick's) "Now She

Sings,..."

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
flat

Post by Mark Polis
ride was an embossed Paiste stamp 18" flat ride (pre blue label

era).

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
I

Post by Mark Polis
seem to recall it thereafter becoming Barry Altschul's cymbal

somehow.

Post by Mark Polis
We need to consult Jay for the details. He once related them all

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
here.
"In NY, 1974, I was studying with Barry Altschul & asked him if he

ever

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
played the flat 18" 602 that he used w/ Chick & Anthony Braxton,

since

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
at his place, all I ever saw were Ks. He says, "I just traded it in
last week." I immediately subway up to Frank Ippolito's drum shop &
Frank gives it to me for ~$40. It's the cymbal on all the Circle &
Corea trio stuff with Altschul. Years ago when I was working cruise
ships, I drilled 1 hole in it for a rivet & it sounds just

wonderful.

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
I've put a LOT of 8th notes on that little sweetheart for 2.5

decades,

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
& it still feels great!"
http://tinyurl.com/6qopk
now, the key question is whether or not barry's flat is the exact

same

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
one as roy's. i seem to remember something about that being chick's
cymbal that he gave to all the drummers he played/recorded with in

that

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
era. of course, he may have just had a stash of 602s, some being

18,

Post by Jay Epstein

Post by Mark Polis
some 20. and of course i have exactly no way of confirming any of
this.
Jack Butler

m***@gmail.com

2019-01-11 22:36:23 UTC

Permalink

THE FINAL ANSWER IS HERE

Roy Haynes and Chick Corea's flat ride is a Paiste Formula 602 pre serial 18" (weight 1490g) !

Thanks to Sabian who gave the answer in this video : https://www.facebook.com/SABIANCymbals/videos/chick-corea-flat-ride-3/2192730414282878/

Best regards from France,

Maxime Frain