Grip question

[Mark S. (UK)]

Hi all,
I know grip varies a lot while playing, but by default - when gripping
the stick and looking down at your knuckles on the top of your hand,
does the butt of the stick tend to appear out of the side of your hand
where the knuckle of your little finger is, or out near the wrist joint?

In other words, does the stick go diagonally across the palm of your
hand, sort of touching the padded bit near the wrist joint held lightly
in place by the pads of the back 3 fingers and almost in line with the
rest of your arm.. OR more across the palm up near the bottom joints of
the fingers, sort of more at a 70 degree angle to your arm?

If that makes sense ;-)

Both feel quest different to me.

I guess this is more relevant to a German / Palms down type grip..

Cheers,
Mark.

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by Mark S. (UK)
Hi all,
I know grip varies a lot while playing, but by default - when gripping
the stick and looking down at your knuckles on the top of your hand,
does the butt of the stick tend to appear out of the side of your hand
where the knuckle of your little finger is, or out near the wrist joint?
In other words, does the stick go diagonally across the palm of your
hand, sort of touching the padded bit near the wrist joint held lightly
in place by the pads of the back 3 fingers and almost in line with the
rest of your arm.. OR more across the palm up near the bottom joints of
the fingers, sort of more at a 70 degree angle to your arm?
If that makes sense ;-)
Both feel quest different to me.
I guess this is more relevant to a German / Palms down type grip..
Cheers,
Mark.

Hey Mark,

Assuming we are talking matched grip? The wrist should be naturally
relaxed and in line with the arm. When playing mallets one may change
this orientation slightly but for snare work and drum set for matched,
I teach you should move the arm to accomodate the grip/position changes
on the set, also slightly twisting the torso on bigger kits, with out
changing the wrist and grip.

Hope that makes sense!

PP

[Mark S. (UK)]

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by Mark S. (UK)
Hi all,
I know grip varies a lot while playing, but by default - when gripping
the stick and looking down at your knuckles on the top of your hand,
does the butt of the stick tend to appear out of the side of your hand
where the knuckle of your little finger is, or out near the wrist joint?
In other words, does the stick go diagonally across the palm of your
hand, sort of touching the padded bit near the wrist joint held
lightly in place by the pads of the back 3 fingers and almost in line
with the rest of your arm.. OR more across the palm up near the bottom
joints of the fingers, sort of more at a 70 degree angle to your arm?
If that makes sense ;-)
Both feel quest different to me.
I guess this is more relevant to a German / Palms down type grip..
Cheers,
Mark.

Hey Mark,
Assuming we are talking matched grip?

Yep.

Post by Pete Pemberton
The wrist should be naturally
relaxed and in line with the arm. When playing mallets one may change
this orientation slightly but for snare work and drum set for matched, I
teach you should move the arm to accomodate the grip/position changes on
the set, also slightly twisting the torso on bigger kits, with out
changing the wrist and grip.

I see; so basically move it around depending on what you're doing.

Post by Pete Pemberton
Hope that makes sense!

Think so! Thanks! :-)

Mark.

[Daniel W. Rouse Jr.]

[snip...]

Post by Pete Pemberton
Hey Mark,
Assuming we are talking matched grip? The wrist should be naturally
relaxed and in line with the arm. When playing mallets one may change this
orientation slightly but for snare work and drum set for matched, I teach
you should move the arm to accomodate the grip/position changes on the
set, also slightly twisting the torso on bigger kits, with out changing
the wrist and grip.

That is interesting because I find the hand sort pivots away just slightly
when I am holding the drumstick for the most comfortable and usable grip of
the stick. If the hand is straight with the wrist and arm (using a matched
grip) then I find the stick feels too angled to use effectively.

[snip...]

[gpsman]

Post by Mark S. (UK)
I know grip varies a lot while playing, but by default - when gripping
the stick and looking down at your knuckles on the top of your hand,
does the butt of the stick tend to appear out of the side of your hand
where the knuckle of your little finger is, or out near the wrist joint?

I was taught the stick remains aligned with the arm bones; back of
hand on top, butt extending straight under the arm.

If you lock the elbow and raise the arm to "aim" down the stick, the
stick remains aligned with the arm.

Moeller, I think, teaches that the butt extends outside the hand, and
I don't see a shitload of difference when it comes to control. I
think the important thing is all the fingers are in an optimal
position to control the stick.
-----

- gpsman

[Mark S. (UK)]

Post by gpsman

Post by Mark S. (UK)
I know grip varies a lot while playing, but by default - when gripping
the stick and looking down at your knuckles on the top of your hand,
does the butt of the stick tend to appear out of the side of your hand
where the knuckle of your little finger is, or out near the wrist joint?

I was taught the stick remains aligned with the arm bones; back of
hand on top, butt extending straight under the arm.

Do you mean in such a position that if the stick was held high up, the
butt would stop the wrist bending forward?

Yep that's one of the ways I was trying.

Do you manage to keep the little finger pad on the stick?

Post by gpsman
If you lock the elbow and raise the arm to "aim" down the stick, the
stick remains aligned with the arm.

Understood.

Post by gpsman
Moeller, I think, teaches that the butt extends outside the hand, and
I don't see a shitload of difference when it comes to control. I
think the important thing is all the fingers are in an optimal
position to control the stick.

Yep I was taught Moeller for a while too.

I think the best thing is if I just experiment with both for a while.
As with everything, it probably boils down to using what is best for the
application.

Mark.

[gpsman]

Post by Mark S. (UK)

Post by gpsman
I was taught the stick remains aligned with the arm bones; back of
hand on top, butt extending straight under the arm.

Do you mean in such a position that if the stick was held high up, the
butt would stop the wrist bending forward?

I think so. If you hold the stick just behind its shoulder and
"stroke", the butt strikes the forearm.

Post by Mark S. (UK)
Do you manage to keep the little finger pad on the stick?

Not keep. The stick has to be "free" when it strikes, but mostly, and
that's true of all the fingertips.

Post by Mark S. (UK)
As with everything, it probably boils down to using what is best for the
application.

Not according to my source, when the application is drumming.

Control is everything, everything comes from control. Proper grip is
fundamentally essential to control, and there is but one proper grip,
based on physiology, and it don't change.

I have to agree with that, if not its militantness.

If you hang your hand off an edge and stroke the stick there's a lot
more range of motion up and down with the hand on top, rather than the
thumb. I don't think "my" grip is superior to Moeller in that regard.

But, lining up the (R) arm bones and stick flexes the wrist to or near
its R limit which practically makes and keeps the stroke near perfect
laterally. No "boat rowing". That may be its greatest advantage.

When I started I had to keep my strokes within a circle the size of a
quarter. It wasn't long before I could throw them inside of a dime.

It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.
-----

- gpsman

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.
-----
- gpsman

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time. YMMV.

PP

[gpsman]

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time.

Fascinating analysis.

Post by Pete Pemberton
YMMV.

It does. I'm not a doctor, but these guys look like their wrists are
ok.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-883034824566325796#
-----

- gpsman

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time.

Fascinating analysis.

No need to get snarky. Holiday Spirit anyone?

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton
YMMV.

It does. I'm not a doctor, but these guys look like their wrists are
ok.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-883034824566325796#
-----
- gpsman

Their thumbs are rotated to the top more than the way I play. Kind of a
cross between French and German? I play with my hands mostly flat, so
yeah, I still think it puts strain on the wrist. It strains my wrist if
I make the stick straight when my hands are flat. It also limits the
free motion of the wrist. The dead fish flop if you will, re: Moeller
Technique.

If you rotate your wrist so the thumbnail is more up and the wrist is
toward the verticle, to me this is not a modern matched grip any more.
It seems to be more of a French Grip.

PP

[Daniel W. Rouse Jr.]

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time.

Fascinating analysis.

No need to get snarky. Holiday Spirit anyone?

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton
YMMV.

It does. I'm not a doctor, but these guys look like their wrists are
ok.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-883034824566325796#
-----
- gpsman

Their thumbs are rotated to the top more than the way I play. Kind of a
cross between French and German? I play with my hands mostly flat, so
yeah, I still think it puts strain on the wrist. It strains my wrist if I
make the stick straight when my hands are flat. It also limits the free
motion of the wrist. The dead fish flop if you will, re: Moeller
Technique.

That may be what is called the American Grip.

[snip...]

[Pete Pemberton]

On 2010-12-18 00:06:00 -0500, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."

Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
That may be what is called the American Grip.
[snip...]

I beleive you are right, sir! And after experimenting a bit, it's not a
strain to have the wrist bent. I'm more of a German grip guy, and
trying to put the stick in the position for American puts strain on my
wrist when I use the German grip.

PP

[Steve Turner]

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time.

Fascinating analysis.

No need to get snarky. Holiday Spirit anyone?

While gpsman certainly seems to know his stuff and I've come to respect that
about him, show me a post where he *doesn't* get snarky. There's a guy like
that in another group I follow; only ever gruff, all day every day. Gets kinda
old, really.

[-MIKE-]

Post by Steve Turner
There's a
guy like that in another group I follow; only ever gruff, all day every
day. Gets kinda old, really.

Dude, I'm standing right here.

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by -MIKE-

Post by Steve Turner
There's a
guy like that in another group I follow; only ever gruff, all day every
day. Gets kinda old, really.

Dude, I'm standing right here.

He's the guy holding the popcorn...

PP

[Steve Turner]

Post by -MIKE-

Post by Steve Turner
There's a
guy like that in another group I follow; only ever gruff, all day every
day. Gets kinda old, really.

Dude, I'm standing right here.

LOL!

[oldschool]

"Control is everything, everything comes from control. Proper grip
is
fundamentally essential to control, and there is but one proper grip,
based on physiology, and it don't change."

Look, with respect, the "there is but one proper grip" thing is crap.

First, everybody's hands are different. Different hands, different
physiology. So, even if there was "one proper grip", it would look
different on different people.

Second, "control" is good, but control over what? Are you striking a
drum, or a cymbal? A ride cymbal, a crash cymbal, or a hat? What
kind of sound do you want to create when you strike it? Snare drum or
tom? Are you trying to draw a nice round, liquid sound out of the
drum, or do you want a big boom, or a sharp snappy attack?

Those kinds of choices are all part of "control", and they all affect
the grip.

What tempo are you playing at? Are you playing high hat 1/8 notes at
120, or bop ride cymbal time at 300? If you want to get an
appropriate sound and want to have any chance in hell of making the
tempo, you will not use the same grip for those two applications.

When I practice grip stuff, I practice a fulcrum on each finger,
including pinkie. I practice gripping with and without the thumb,
just holding the stick by wrapping the finger around it, and I do that
with each finger. I practice rocking my hand back and forth between
back-of-hand up and thumb up, while maintaining a constant rate and
sound. I practice simple eighth notes at a moderate tempo while
completely letting go of the stick between each stroke.

I use every single one of those approaches to holding the stick when I
play. Every single one.

If your instrument is rudimental snare drum and nothing but rudimental
snare drum, maybe you have a point.

If your instrument is drum set, then you're barking up the wrong tree.
My opinion.

[-MIKE-]

"....there is but one proper grip,
based on physiology, and it don't change."
Look, with respect, the "there is but one proper grip" thing is crap.

He's a little more loose with the rules of grammar than drumming
technique, huh? :-)

[gpsman]

"Control is everything, everything comes from control.  Proper grip
is
fundamentally essential to control, and there is but one proper grip,
based on physiology, and it don't change."
Look, with respect, the "there is but one proper grip" thing is crap.
First, everybody's hands are different.  Different hands, different
physiology.  So, even if there was "one proper grip", it would look
different on different people.

False premise. There is no evidence to suggest hands differ to such a
degree.

Second, "control" is good, but control over what?

You seem to think you know an awful lot for a guy who doesn't know
that.

Are you striking a
drum, or a cymbal?  A ride cymbal, a crash cymbal, or a hat?  What
kind of sound do you want to create when you strike it?  Snare drum or
tom?  Are you trying to draw a nice round, liquid sound out of the
drum, or do you want a big boom, or a sharp snappy attack?
Those kinds of choices are all part of "control", and they all affect
the grip.

Your grip, maybe.

What tempo are you playing at?  Are you playing high hat 1/8 notes at
120, or bop ride cymbal time at 300?  If you want to get an
appropriate sound and want to have any chance in hell of making the
tempo, you will not use the same grip for those two applications.

Who teaches that...?

When I practice grip stuff, I practice a fulcrum on each finger,
including pinkie.  I practice gripping with and without the thumb,
just holding the stick by wrapping the finger around it, and I do that
with each finger.  I practice rocking my hand back and forth between
back-of-hand up and thumb up, while maintaining a constant rate and
sound.  I practice simple eighth notes at a moderate tempo while
completely letting go of the stick between each stroke.
I use every single one of those approaches to holding the stick when I
play.  Every single one.

That may be both fascinating and irrelevant, and fascinatingly
irrelevant. Nobody teaches your method.

If your instrument is rudimental snare drum and nothing but rudimental
snare drum, maybe you have a point.
If your instrument is drum set, then you're barking up the wrong tree.
My opinion.

Based on shit you made up. Thanks loads.
-----

- gpsman

[Sean Conolly]

Post by gpsman

"Control is everything, everything comes from control. Proper grip
is
fundamentally essential to control, and there is but one proper grip,
based on physiology, and it don't change."
Look, with respect, the "there is but one proper grip" thing is crap.
First, everybody's hands are different. Different hands, different
physiology. So, even if there was "one proper grip", it would look
different on different people.

False premise. There is no evidence to suggest hands differ to such a
degree.

Second, "control" is good, but control over what?

You seem to think you know an awful lot for a guy who doesn't know
that.

Are you striking a
drum, or a cymbal? A ride cymbal, a crash cymbal, or a hat? What
kind of sound do you want to create when you strike it? Snare drum or
tom? Are you trying to draw a nice round, liquid sound out of the
drum, or do you want a big boom, or a sharp snappy attack?
Those kinds of choices are all part of "control", and they all affect
the grip.

Your grip, maybe.

What tempo are you playing at? Are you playing high hat 1/8 notes at
120, or bop ride cymbal time at 300? If you want to get an
appropriate sound and want to have any chance in hell of making the
tempo, you will not use the same grip for those two applications.

Who teaches that...?

When I practice grip stuff, I practice a fulcrum on each finger,
including pinkie. I practice gripping with and without the thumb,
just holding the stick by wrapping the finger around it, and I do that
with each finger. I practice rocking my hand back and forth between
back-of-hand up and thumb up, while maintaining a constant rate and
sound. I practice simple eighth notes at a moderate tempo while
completely letting go of the stick between each stroke.
I use every single one of those approaches to holding the stick when I
play. Every single one.

That may be both fascinating and irrelevant, and fascinatingly
irrelevant. Nobody teaches your method.

If your instrument is rudimental snare drum and nothing but rudimental
snare drum, maybe you have a point.
If your instrument is drum set, then you're barking up the wrong tree.
My opinion.

Based on shit you made up. Thanks loads.

Nope - I call bullshit on you, sir.

The methods that are taught are to help the student develop quickly by
following a solid, known path to becoming a musician. The final act is when
they move on beyond the limits of what they've been taught and develop their
own style. You spend years learning, and then more years forgetting about
the mechanics until you just become a natural player. Learning something
isn't the end, it's just the begining.

To be specific, the stick just becomes an extension of your hand and you
don't think about your grip or stroke any more than you think about
breathing while you're playing. Maybe you haven't reached this point yet?

Sean

[Mark (UK)]

Post by Sean Conolly

Post by gpsman

"Control is everything, everything comes from control. Proper grip
is
fundamentally essential to control, and there is but one proper grip,
based on physiology, and it don't change."
Look, with respect, the "there is but one proper grip" thing is crap.
First, everybody's hands are different. Different hands, different
physiology. So, even if there was "one proper grip", it would look
different on different people.

False premise. There is no evidence to suggest hands differ to such a
degree.

Second, "control" is good, but control over what?

You seem to think you know an awful lot for a guy who doesn't know
that.

Are you striking a
drum, or a cymbal? A ride cymbal, a crash cymbal, or a hat? What
kind of sound do you want to create when you strike it? Snare drum or
tom? Are you trying to draw a nice round, liquid sound out of the
drum, or do you want a big boom, or a sharp snappy attack?
Those kinds of choices are all part of "control", and they all affect
the grip.

Your grip, maybe.

What tempo are you playing at? Are you playing high hat 1/8 notes at
120, or bop ride cymbal time at 300? If you want to get an
appropriate sound and want to have any chance in hell of making the
tempo, you will not use the same grip for those two applications.

Who teaches that...?

When I practice grip stuff, I practice a fulcrum on each finger,
including pinkie. I practice gripping with and without the thumb,
just holding the stick by wrapping the finger around it, and I do that
with each finger. I practice rocking my hand back and forth between
back-of-hand up and thumb up, while maintaining a constant rate and
sound. I practice simple eighth notes at a moderate tempo while
completely letting go of the stick between each stroke.
I use every single one of those approaches to holding the stick when I
play. Every single one.

That may be both fascinating and irrelevant, and fascinatingly
irrelevant. Nobody teaches your method.

If your instrument is rudimental snare drum and nothing but rudimental
snare drum, maybe you have a point.
If your instrument is drum set, then you're barking up the wrong tree.
My opinion.

Based on shit you made up. Thanks loads.

Nope - I call bullshit on you, sir.
The methods that are taught are to help the student develop quickly by
following a solid, known path to becoming a musician. The final act is when
they move on beyond the limits of what they've been taught and develop their
own style. You spend years learning, and then more years forgetting about
the mechanics until you just become a natural player. Learning something
isn't the end, it's just the begining.
To be specific, the stick just becomes an extension of your hand and you
don't think about your grip or stroke any more than you think about
breathing while you're playing. Maybe you haven't reached this point yet?
Sean

Didn't mean to start an argument here guys!

Gotta say it seems a bit odd to me too saying there is only one grip.
Weckl, Steve Smith, etc. in their videos all seems to switch around
between grips.

My original question was more about the specifics of the palm down
technique (Getman/American). It's difficult to pick up the specifics
watching videos because by nature of it being a palm down technique you
cannot see exactly what is being done.

I am seeing a new teacher on Tuesday so I will talk to him about it.

At one point I thought I had it sorted and did not used to think about
it much, but when I started playing more heavy music I realised I was
losing control on harder faster fills and hurting myself a bit when
snapping my hand from one position to another to get to a cymbal after a
fast fill - and I think generally that's because the back 3 fingers were
not helping support the stick much. The fulcrum was 90% of the grip
pretty much. I didn't feel I had much meat on the stick.

I think I'm on my way to fixing it though - but wanted to be sure I was
on the right track generally with general stick positioning.

Cheers,
Mark.

[oldschool]

"There is no evidence to suggest hands differ to such a degree."

Look, here is a very simple experiment. Lay your hand, palm down,
perfectly flat on a table. Bring your thumb flush with the side of
your hand. How far up the side of your hand is the top of your thumb?

Mine comes just above the knuckle where my index finger joins my
hand. A good buddy of mine's thumb comes up almost to the first
knuckle above that.

That's a big difference.

The position and shape of his hand when he holds the stick with the
"standard" fulcrum - stick between the thumb and the last two knuckles
of his index finger - is very different than when I do so. That's
physiology.

People's hands are different. It effects everything about the
mechanics of how you hold the stick.

Read up on what Tony said about fulcrums, and using the bounce of the
stick off of the head, and the role of the other fingers. Tony wasn't
merely a brilliant natural player, he was an extremely serious student
of what he was about.

Watch good cats play and you will see them move the fulcrum from the
index back to the other fingers, and back, depending on the tone and
volume they want out of the drum. Watch the motion of their hands
when they strike the drum - sometime it will be almost a straight up
and down flexing of the wrist, sometimes it will more of a "turning
the door knob" motion.

Watch cats like Bill Stewart or Tony play ride cymbal. You will see
them release and catch the stick while playing, especially at up-
tempos.

Straight up, I don't give a f*ck what your opinion of me is. I'm just
sharing what I know and observe about playing drums. Do with it what
you will. If you have sense, you'll look at what the good guys do,
and listen to what they say when they talk about playing.

I have no idea if you are a good player or not, it's just clear to me
that in the world of drumset drumming, there is no "one" grip. It
depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

"Thanks loads."

You're welcome.

[gpsman]

Post by oldschool
"There is no evidence to suggest hands differ to such a degree."
Look, here is a very simple experiment.  Lay your hand, palm down,
perfectly flat on a table.  Bring your thumb flush with the side of
your hand.  How far up the side of your hand is the top of your thumb?
Mine comes just above the knuckle where my index finger joins my
hand.  A good buddy of mine's thumb comes up almost to the first
knuckle above that.
That's a big difference.
The position and shape of his hand when he holds the stick with the
"standard" fulcrum - stick between the thumb and the last two knuckles
of his index finger - is very different than when I do so.  That's
physiology.
People's hands are different.  It effects everything about the
mechanics of how you hold the stick.

Gee, you're just declaring all of the accepted "formal" grips invalid,
based on your buddy's thumb. You -must- know what the fuck you're
talking about.

Post by oldschool
Read up on what Tony said about fulcrums, and using the bounce of the
stick off of the head, and the role of the other fingers.  Tony wasn't
merely a brilliant natural player, he was an extremely serious student
of what he was about.

Tony who...?

Post by oldschool
Watch good cats play and you will see them move the fulcrum from the
index back to the other fingers, and back, depending on the tone and
volume they want out of the drum.

Perhaps if the good cats had learned a proper grip such drastic
measures would be unnecessary.

Post by oldschool
Watch the motion of their hands
when they strike the drum - sometime it will be almost a straight up
and down flexing of the wrist, sometimes it will more of a "turning
the door knob" motion.

So?

Post by oldschool
Watch cats like Bill Stewart or Tony play ride cymbal.  You will see
them release and catch the stick while playing, especially at up-
tempos.

So?

What you need here is some sort of evidence those licks are
unobtainable with another grip. Anything else is just blowing smoke
up my ass.

Post by oldschool
Straight up, I don't give a f*ck what your opinion of me is.

I've never encountered anyone who misconstrued so much of what they
think they know who did.

Post by oldschool
I'm just
sharing what I know and observe about playing drums.  Do with it what
you will.  If you have sense, you'll look at what the good guys do,
and listen to what they say when they talk about playing.

I'm not really interested in the thoughts of guys who consider
releasing the stick and catching it an essential element of up-tempo
drumming.

Post by oldschool
I have no idea if you are a good player or not, it's just clear to me
that in the world of drumset drumming, there is no "one" grip.  It
depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

Control. One grip works fine for that.
-----

- gpsman

[gpsman]

Post by Sean Conolly

"Control is everything, everything comes from control. Proper grip
is
fundamentally essential to control, and there is but one proper grip,
based on physiology, and it don't change."

Nope - I call bullshit on you, sir.

Groovy.

Post by Sean Conolly
The methods that are taught are to help the student develop quickly by
following a solid, known path to becoming a musician. The final act is when
they move on beyond the limits of what they've been taught and develop their
own style.

False premise. Requires one abandon the grip that got them to point B
to develop their own style.

Post by Sean Conolly
You spend years learning, and then more years forgetting about
the mechanics until you just become a natural player.

You got that about half-ass-backward. Every discipline has its basic
fundamentals that one strives to make second-nature, because they are
not first-nature. People may be naturally good drummers, but I
haven't seen any evidence of that myself.

Post by Sean Conolly
Learning something
isn't the end, it's just the begining.

That would make a great tattoo.

Post by Sean Conolly
To be specific, the stick just becomes an extension of your hand and you
don't think about your grip or stroke any more than you think about
breathing while you're playing. Maybe you haven't reached this point yet?

Technique is essential to control, according to my school, so that's
not a point I ever looked to reach. But, yeah, I didn't have to think
much about my grip once it had been beaten into me.

If you want to strike things precisely with a stick it does not seem
unreasonable to think consistency of grip would be an aid, rather than
a handicap.
-----

- gpsman

[Sean Conolly]

Post by gpsman

Post by Sean Conolly

"Control is everything, everything comes from control. Proper grip
is
fundamentally essential to control, and there is but one proper grip,
based on physiology, and it don't change."

Nope - I call bullshit on you, sir.

Groovy.

Post by Sean Conolly
The methods that are taught are to help the student develop quickly by
following a solid, known path to becoming a musician. The final act is when
they move on beyond the limits of what they've been taught and develop their
own style.

False premise. Requires one abandon the grip that got them to point B
to develop their own style.

Post by Sean Conolly
You spend years learning, and then more years forgetting about
the mechanics until you just become a natural player.

You got that about half-ass-backward. Every discipline has its basic
fundamentals that one strives to make second-nature, because they are
not first-nature. People may be naturally good drummers, but I
haven't seen any evidence of that myself.

I'm paraphrasing something I got from Ira Sullivan after a gig, when we were
disscusing music theory.

As for natural players, yes they do exist and they are not uncommon. You see
them all the time on youtube.

Post by gpsman

Post by Sean Conolly
To be specific, the stick just becomes an extension of your hand and you
don't think about your grip or stroke any more than you think about
breathing while you're playing. Maybe you haven't reached this point yet?

Technique is essential to control, according to my school, so that's
not a point I ever looked to reach. But, yeah, I didn't have to think
much about my grip once it had been beaten into me.
If you want to strike things precisely with a stick it does not seem
unreasonable to think consistency of grip would be an aid, rather than
a handicap.

It's not a handicap. Thinking that you must be 'wrong' if you're not doing
it the 'right' way is the handicap. If you're a real musician you don't need
to think about it all, it just is what it is.

Don't get me wrong, if it works for you then more power to you, but if you
think there's only one right way and everything else is wrong, then you are
definitely the minority opinion among set players, at least.

Sean

[Daniel W. Rouse Jr.]

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.
-----
- gpsman

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time. YMMV.

It may, but I find that by having the stick almost being an extension of the
arm with the back part of the stick closer to the wrist that matched grip
finger control methods can be used instead of using the wrist and arm. True,
the stick height may be a little higher when using a finger control method,
but it saves the wrist and the arm from that extra stress. The stick also
tends to turn inward to almost being in line with the arm when using such a
finger control method, it seems, but the back part of the stick also doesn't
hit the inside part of the wrist.

[Chris Milillo]

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.
-----
- gpsman

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time. YMMV.
PP

In short, I agree with Pete.

In long...

I was taught the "stick aligns with the arm" German matched grip, too. I
played this way and also taught my students this grip/position for many
years, however, a few years back, I began searching for a way to adjust my
grip to make playing more "effortless" and to alleviate cramps I began to
experience in the muscle between the thumb and index finger of my right
hand.

After a lot of observation, research and trial and error, I found the most
comfortable way to grip the stick is between the thumb and forefinger and/or
middle finger, with the sticks pointing inward toward each other (mine are
between a 45-60 degree angle), and the butt-ends protruding from the sides
of my hands.

I find this "new" grip allows me to be far more relaxed, is more ergonomic,
and allows for excellent finger control. If I had to explain my grip (and I
do every day), here's the boiled down version of it.

* Stand with your arms and hands hanging freely at your sides (without
sticks), completely relaxed. Notice your arms/hands are neither parallel nor
perpendicular to your feet. They are angled inward at my previously stated
45-60 degrees.

(Note*** Think of the principle of the ergonomic "split" (and angled)
computer keyboards... You either love them or hate them, but I got used to
one and it's physically uncomfortable for me to use a normal keyboard
anymore.)

* Lift your hands by bending your elbows, while keeping your wrists totally
relaxed, allowing your hands to loosely hang.

* Insert sticks into the hands at the angle your index, middle, ring and
pinky fingers naturally form (when completely relaxed)

* Loosely apply your fulcrum, with the "back" fingers loosely wrapped around
the sticks.

Your palms will not be facing down, in the strictest sense of German grip,
nor will your thumbs be facing up, as with French grip. I've heard this hand
position referred to as "American grip" and it falls between German and
French, but more toward German. In my opinion, this is the most natural grip
and position for matched grip considering gravity and ergonomics.

As Pete said, YMMV.

CM

[-MIKE-]

Post by Chris Milillo

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.
-----
- gpsman

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time. YMMV.
PP

In short, I agree with Pete.
In long...
CM

In short, I agree with Chris and Pete.

In long... well, what we really need is for Rob to come in and tell all
us non-gigging choads how he and Jack and Tony do it.

[Chris Milillo]

Post by -MIKE-

Post by Chris Milillo

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.
-----
- gpsman

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time. YMMV.
PP

In short, I agree with Pete.
In long...
CM

In short, I agree with Chris and Pete.

As you should... :-)

And to our resident grumpy old man (regardless of your actual age)

Gpsman, your assertion that there's ONE correct way to hold a stick is
completely and utterly ridiculous-the mere existence of traditional grip
proves this to be untrue-as is your unwillingness to acknowledge even the
possibility that other techniques are as effective or more effective than
the technique you learned the better part of a half century ago. I suspect
I'm being kind on the timeline. And if I'm wrong, then you just *seem* like
an angry old curmudgeon.

At least you're consistent.

CM

[gpsman]

Post by Chris Milillo
Gpsman, your assertion that there's ONE correct way to hold a stick is
completely and utterly ridiculous-the mere existence of traditional grip
proves this to be untrue

I think the video I linked indicates I was referring to the R hand of
trad grip.

I also wrote: "I don't think "my" grip is superior to Moeller in that
regard." and "lining up the (R) arm bones and stick flexes the wrist
to or near
its R limit..."

Post by Chris Milillo
-as is your unwillingness to acknowledge even the
possibility that other techniques are as effective or more effective than
the technique you learned the better part of a half century ago.

Straw man. I'm unwilling to acknowledge crazy ass techniques are
anything more than affectations.

Post by Chris Milillo
I suspect
I'm being kind on the timeline.

Why? Should I be ashamed of aging?

Post by Chris Milillo
And if I'm wrong, then you just *seem* like
an angry old curmudgeon.

Call it tough love.

Post by Chris Milillo
At least you're consistent.

Consistently right.
-----

- gpsman

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by gpsman

Post by Chris Milillo
-as is your unwillingness to acknowledge even the
possibility that other techniques are as effective or more effective than
the technique you learned the better part of a half century ago.

Straw man. I'm unwilling to acknowledge crazy ass techniques are
anything more than affectations.

I can certainly understand what you mean. When it comes right down to
it, there isn't much of a difference between American and German
mechanically The wrist is just flopping one way or the other is all.
Another aspect to this discussion that has been brought to my attention
are the subtle differences between differing drum corps snare line
stroke techniques. Affectations, indeed.

I don't have a clear picture in my mind whether or not Chapin was using
the straight stick grip or not, him being regarded as the Moeller guy.
Having seen Buddy Rich perform thrice and from watching countless
videos, I can see that he uses the straight stick technique as well.
Rich certainly uses Moeller techniques. I can play in bursts just as
fast, well, singles anyway, and I use the angled stick grip. Is it an
affectation? Dunno, it's just the way my playing has morphed or
developed over the years (traditional grip notwithstanding, and I have
just recently started to use it semi regularly). It just seems a
logical way to play. I am basically self taught, and was never
corrected much in the way I held the sticks when I did take lessons. My
recollection was that the position on the ride was corrected a few
times, but not sure wbout the stick angle per se. It was 35 years ago
so?

Drumming is not new, but many of these grip variations certainly are in
the scope of drumming and especially drum set techniques. Set ups
requiring new angles may lead to variations that seem new to some
(think of Nicko McBrain or Pat McDonald's crazy verticle ride cymbal
set ups). Not sure I would call that an affectation, certainly an
adaption.

PP

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman

Post by Chris Milillo
-as is your unwillingness to acknowledge even the
possibility that other techniques are as effective or more effective than
the technique you learned the better part of a half century ago.

Straw man. I'm unwilling to acknowledge crazy ass techniques are
anything more than affectations.

I can certainly understand what you mean. When it comes right down to
it, there isn't much of a difference between American and German
mechanically The wrist is just flopping one way or the other is all.
Another aspect to this discussion that has been brought to my attention
are the subtle differences between differing drum corps snare line
stroke techniques. Affectations, indeed.
I don't have a clear picture in my mind whether or not Chapin was using
the straight stick grip or not, him being regarded as the Moeller guy.
Having seen Buddy Rich perform thrice and from watching countless
videos, I can see that he uses the straight stick technique as well.
Rich certainly uses Moeller techniques. I can play in bursts just as
fast, well, singles anyway, and I use the angled stick grip. Is it an
affectation? Dunno, it's just the way my playing has morphed or
developed over the years (traditional grip notwithstanding, and I have
just recently started to use it semi regularly). It just seems a
logical way to play. I am basically self taught, and was never
corrected much in the way I held the sticks when I did take lessons. My
recollection was that the position on the ride was corrected a few
times, but not sure wbout the stick angle per se. It was 35 years ago
so?
Drumming is not new, but many of these grip variations certainly are in
the scope of drumming and especially drum set techniques. Set ups
requiring new angles may lead to variations that seem new to some
(think of Nicko McBrain or Pat McDonald's crazy verticle ride cymbal
set ups). Not sure I would call that an affectation, certainly an
adaption.
PP

Ack sorry for the typos!

Adaptation. About, and of course I meant BR USED the Moeller
techniques, not uses...

PP

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by Chris Milillo

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.
-----
- gpsman

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time. YMMV.
PP

In short, I agree with Pete.
In long...
I was taught the "stick aligns with the arm" German matched grip, too. I
played this way and also taught my students this grip/position for many
years, however, a few years back, I began searching for a way to adjust my
grip to make playing more "effortless" and to alleviate cramps I began to
experience in the muscle between the thumb and index finger of my right
hand.
After a lot of observation, research and trial and error, I found the most
comfortable way to grip the stick is between the thumb and forefinger and/or
middle finger, with the sticks pointing inward toward each other (mine are
between a 45-60 degree angle), and the butt-ends protruding from the sides
of my hands.
I find this "new" grip allows me to be far more relaxed, is more ergonomic,
and allows for excellent finger control. If I had to explain my grip (and I
do every day), here's the boiled down version of it.
* Stand with your arms and hands hanging freely at your sides (without
sticks), completely relaxed. Notice your arms/hands are neither parallel nor
perpendicular to your feet. They are angled inward at my previously stated
45-60 degrees.
(Note*** Think of the principle of the ergonomic "split" (and angled)
computer keyboards... You either love them or hate them, but I got used to
one and it's physically uncomfortable for me to use a normal keyboard
anymore.)
* Lift your hands by bending your elbows, while keeping your wrists totally
relaxed, allowing your hands to loosely hang.
* Insert sticks into the hands at the angle your index, middle, ring and
pinky fingers naturally form (when completely relaxed)
* Loosely apply your fulcrum, with the "back" fingers loosely wrapped around
the sticks.
Your palms will not be facing down, in the strictest sense of German grip,
nor will your thumbs be facing up, as with French grip. I've heard this hand
position referred to as "American grip" and it falls between German and
French, but more toward German. In my opinion, this is the most natural grip
and position for matched grip considering gravity and ergonomics.
As Pete said, YMMV.
CM

This is the main grip I use, and it makes the Moeller and Push-Pull
seemingly easier to accomplish, if you can keep your wrists completely
relaxed. If you have ever seen Jim Chapin play, Chris' great
description is how he does it as well (at least with his right hand as
he is a trad grip guy). Jim just shakes his arms up and down, and the
wrists flop like dead feesh.

At times I regress to Moeller for Heavy Hitters, letting go of the
stick with thumb and forefinger, using only the back fingers. Cracks me
up when I use it, for some reason.

In the past I have used the Cobham/Phillips thumbs-up grip
(quasi-French grip to my way of thinking, as a full on FG is finger
controlled - think timpani rolls) when rolling around a many tom'ed kit.

I also used trad grip for fun and sometimes for feel, especially when
playing with my combo. God I suck at jazz. Always try to play too much.

The one video dude was saying that no one rotates the wrist to play any
more, MUMBO JUMBO! Bass drum corps specialists rotate, as do
traditional grip corps snare specialists.

So just in my experience alone, there are many ways to hold the stick,
let alone how to strike the surface of snares, toms, cymbals and the
myriad shit we have in our collections to make noise and timbres. To
say there is one grip is ok for beginners, but by high school here in
my area, if you want to be one of the top drummers, you better have a
few grips mastered; matched, catch and release, traditional, four
mallet, et all.

PP

[gpsman]

Post by Pete Pemberton
So just in my experience alone, there are many ways to hold the stick,
let alone how to strike the surface of snares, toms, cymbals and the
myriad shit we have in our collections to make noise and timbres.

Which can't be played with German grip?

Post by Pete Pemberton
To
say there is one grip is ok for beginners, but by high school here in
my area, if you want to be one of the top drummers, you better have a
few grips mastered; matched, catch and release, traditional, four
mallet, et all.

My training and experience suggests fewer drummers have "mastered"
trad grip by graduation than "have it" as Freshmen.

If there's any video of your grip masters demonstrating their
masteries, I think I'd shit myself upon seeing it.
-----

- gpsman

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton
So just in my experience alone, there are many ways to hold the stick,
let alone how to strike the surface of snares, toms, cymbals and the
myriad shit we have in our collections to make noise and timbres.

Which can't be played with German grip?

Post by Pete Pemberton
To
say there is one grip is ok for beginners, but by high school here in
my area, if you want to be one of the top drummers, you better have a
few grips mastered; matched, catch and release, traditional, four
mallet, et all.

My training and experience suggests fewer drummers have "mastered"
trad grip by graduation than "have it" as Freshmen.
If there's any video of your grip masters demonstrating their
masteries, I think I'd shit myself upon seeing it.
-----
- gpsman

OK, mastered was the wrong word, try reading between the lines.

Jeez.

[gpsman]

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton
So just in my experience alone, there are many ways to hold the stick,
let alone how to strike the surface of snares, toms, cymbals and the
myriad shit we have in our collections to make noise and timbres.

Which can't be played with German grip?

Post by Pete Pemberton
To
say there is one grip is ok for beginners, but by high school here in
my area, if you want to be one of the top drummers, you better have a
few grips mastered; matched, catch and release, traditional, four
mallet, et all.

My training and experience suggests fewer drummers have "mastered"
trad grip by graduation than "have it" as Freshmen.

OK, mastered was the wrong word, try reading between the lines.
Jeez.

Jeez is right. Is it my fault, or did you use the wrong word...?

I think I live proximate to "your area". I had occasion to run into
~dozen members of the Mason HS percussion section last summer. When I
asked what grip they were taught those who looked up from their
Blackberry or Palm went, in unison, "d-dd-duh, huh?" and/or exhibited
a blank stare or quizzical look.

I persisted, thinking maybe I mumbled or they didn't hear, "French,
German?" They hadn't the slightest idea there was such a thing as a
formal grip, none of 'em.

Where are the successors to the throne Buddy left empty? Why are
there few if any drummers who even approach his level of technical
expertise?

I strongly suspect the answer is related to his grip.
-----

- gpsman

[Mark (UK)]

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton
So just in my experience alone, there are many ways to hold the stick,
let alone how to strike the surface of snares, toms, cymbals and the
myriad shit we have in our collections to make noise and timbres.

Which can't be played with German grip?

Post by Pete Pemberton
To
say there is one grip is ok for beginners, but by high school here in
my area, if you want to be one of the top drummers, you better have a
few grips mastered; matched, catch and release, traditional, four
mallet, et all.

My training and experience suggests fewer drummers have "mastered"
trad grip by graduation than "have it" as Freshmen.

OK, mastered was the wrong word, try reading between the lines.
Jeez.

Jeez is right. Is it my fault, or did you use the wrong word...?
I think I live proximate to "your area". I had occasion to run into
~dozen members of the Mason HS percussion section last summer. When I
asked what grip they were taught those who looked up from their
Blackberry or Palm went, in unison, "d-dd-duh, huh?" and/or exhibited
a blank stare or quizzical look.
I persisted, thinking maybe I mumbled or they didn't hear, "French,
German?" They hadn't the slightest idea there was such a thing as a
formal grip, none of 'em.
Where are the successors to the throne Buddy left empty? Why are
there few if any drummers who even approach his level of technical
expertise?
I strongly suspect the answer is related to his grip.
-----
- gpsman

I notice here that Buddy has is thumb on top when on the ride cymbal, so
I'm thinking he did not always use german palms down.

Unless I'm missing something.

Cheers,
Mark.

[oldschool]

"My issue is I don't hear these rhythmic figures in the
charts, the 'forward', 'tied' patterns (which I really like) so how
does that mesh with what I hear in the ensemble? "

Since you say "charts", are you talking about a big band context? I
think Froman's coming from a smaller jazz ensemble situation. I
wonder if it translates well to big band, where you really need to be
setting stuff up for the rest of the ensemble? Driving 20 guys calls
for a different approach than driving 5.

Have you checked out Mel Lewis? One of the best big band players
around, and also a guy with a more modern time-keeping concept. He's
all over YouTube.

"Why are there few if any drummers who even approach his level of
technical expertise? "

Check out Jo Jo:

He uses a lot of Moller, and a lot of a release-and-grab "push-pull"
technique, see here:

He
plays palm-up or thumb-up as appropriate, and a very wide range of
wrist and arm motions.

More Jo Jo

Dude's a mother.

Dennis Chambers is another guy who has absolutely freak-level raw
chops. It can be kind of hard to see what Chambers is doing because
he's so freaking fast, but if you watch here:

At about 30 seconds you'll see a close up of his hands where you can
see that he's completely released the index finger fulcrum (you can
tell because his index finger is *off the freaking stick*) and is
managing the stick with the "back fingers" of his hands.

I got nothing against straight-up traditional German matched grip, and
if that's what is working for you and your students, live it up. But
there are, self-evidently, other useful, effective, musical ways to
hold a damned drum stick when you play.

Last but not least, everybody (including me) loves Buddy, but the man
only sounded good when he was soloing, or when he was playing with his
own band. He was not a particularly well-rounded musician. Unless
you want a career as a stunt drummer, which is basically what Buddy
was, I'm not sure he's a good model for guys starting out.

'I notice here that Buddy has is thumb on top when on the ride cymbal"

Most guys play ride with the thumb up.

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by oldschool
"My issue is I don't hear these rhythmic figures in the
charts, the 'forward', 'tied' patterns (which I really like) so how
does that mesh with what I hear in the ensemble? "
Since you say "charts", are you talking about a big band context? I
think Froman's coming from a smaller jazz ensemble situation. I
wonder if it translates well to big band, where you really need to be
setting stuff up for the rest of the ensemble? Driving 20 guys calls
for a different approach than driving 5.
Have you checked out Mel Lewis? One of the best big band players
around, and also a guy with a more modern time-keeping concept. He's
all over YouTube.
"Why are there few if any drummers who even approach his level of
technical expertise? "
Check out Jo Jo: http://youtu.be/vTBccpkBClg
He uses a lot of Moller, and a lot of a release-and-grab "push-pull"
technique, see here: http://youtu.be/IXgSkYsM-d4 He
plays palm-up or thumb-up as appropriate, and a very wide range of
wrist and arm motions.
More Jo Jo http://youtu.be/Gr8KYnEW-7Y
Dude's a mother.
Dennis Chambers is another guy who has absolutely freak-level raw
chops. It can be kind of hard to see what Chambers is doing because
http://youtu.be/ues2RBpXQoI
At about 30 seconds you'll see a close up of his hands where you can
see that he's completely released the index finger fulcrum (you can
tell because his index finger is *off the freaking stick*) and is
managing the stick with the "back fingers" of his hands.
I got nothing against straight-up traditional German matched grip, and
if that's what is working for you and your students, live it up. But
there are, self-evidently, other useful, effective, musical ways to
hold a damned drum stick when you play.
Last but not least, everybody (including me) loves Buddy, but the man
only sounded good when he was soloing, or when he was playing with his
own band. He was not a particularly well-rounded musician. Unless
you want a career as a stunt drummer, which is basically what Buddy
was, I'm not sure he's a good model for guys starting out.
'I notice here that Buddy has is thumb on top when on the ride cymbal"
Most guys play ride with the thumb up.

Jazz combo.

PP

[Sean Conolly]

Post by Mark (UK)

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton
So just in my experience alone, there are many ways to hold the stick,
let alone how to strike the surface of snares, toms, cymbals and the
myriad shit we have in our collections to make noise and timbres.

Which can't be played with German grip?

Post by Pete Pemberton
To
say there is one grip is ok for beginners, but by high school here in
my area, if you want to be one of the top drummers, you better have a
few grips mastered; matched, catch and release, traditional, four
mallet, et all.

My training and experience suggests fewer drummers have "mastered"
trad grip by graduation than "have it" as Freshmen.

OK, mastered was the wrong word, try reading between the lines.
Jeez.

Jeez is right. Is it my fault, or did you use the wrong word...?
I think I live proximate to "your area". I had occasion to run into
~dozen members of the Mason HS percussion section last summer. When I
asked what grip they were taught those who looked up from their
Blackberry or Palm went, in unison, "d-dd-duh, huh?" and/or exhibited
a blank stare or quizzical look.
I persisted, thinking maybe I mumbled or they didn't hear, "French,
German?" They hadn't the slightest idea there was such a thing as a
formal grip, none of 'em.
Where are the successors to the throne Buddy left empty? Why are
there few if any drummers who even approach his level of technical
expertise?
I strongly suspect the answer is related to his grip.
-----
- gpsman

http://youtu.be/PZCvG1vJ3z0
I notice here that Buddy has is thumb on top when on the ride cymbal, so
I'm thinking he did not always use german palms down.
Unless I'm missing something.

Say it ain't so!

:-)

[gpsman]

Post by Mark (UK)

Where are the successors to the throne Buddy left empty?  Why are
there few if any drummers who even approach his level of technical
expertise?
I strongly suspect the answer is related to his grip.

http://youtu.be/PZCvG1vJ3z0
I notice here that Buddy has is thumb on top when on the ride cymbal, so
I'm thinking he did not always use german palms down.
Unless I'm missing something.

I don't know. I don't think those are the strokes that elevated him
to the throne.

If I said or implied that Buddy's grip never deviated, or that one
cannot play an "oh, shit" ZZ Top-type beat with anything other than
correct grip, that was an error on my part.

What correct grip offers is superior control that permits one to play
the most demanding passages. If one wishes to rest those muscles, or
just use another grip when maximum control isn't required, I don't see
what difference it makes. The important thing is to have those chops,
and I haven't seen anyone approach Buddy's with another grip.
-----

- gpsman

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton
So just in my experience alone, there are many ways to hold the stick,
let alone how to strike the surface of snares, toms, cymbals and the
myriad shit we have in our collections to make noise and timbres.

Which can't be played with German grip?

Post by Pete Pemberton
To
say there is one grip is ok for beginners, but by high school here in
my area, if you want to be one of the top drummers, you better have a
few grips mastered; matched, catch and release, traditional, four
mallet, et all.

My training and experience suggests fewer drummers have "mastered"
trad grip by graduation than "have it" as Freshmen.

OK, mastered was the wrong word, try reading between the lines.
Jeez.

Jeez is right. Is it my fault, or did you use the wrong word...?
I think I live proximate to "your area". I had occasion to run into
~dozen members of the Mason HS percussion section last summer. When I
asked what grip they were taught those who looked up from their
Blackberry or Palm went, in unison, "d-dd-duh, huh?" and/or exhibited
a blank stare or quizzical look.
I persisted, thinking maybe I mumbled or they didn't hear, "French,
German?" They hadn't the slightest idea there was such a thing as a
formal grip, none of 'em.
Where are the successors to the throne Buddy left empty? Why are
there few if any drummers who even approach his level of technical
expertise?
I strongly suspect the answer is related to his grip.
-----
- gpsman

Could be, and Mason isn't really a powerhouse of drumming in the area.

PP

[n***@zoomnet.net]

Post by gpsman
My training and experience suggests fewer drummers have "mastered"

I think I live proximate to "your area".  I had occasion to run into
~dozen members of the Mason HS percussion section last summer.  When I
asked what grip they were taught those who looked up from their
Blackberry or Palm went, in unison, "d-dd-duh, huh?" and/or exhibited
a blank stare or quizzical look.
I persisted, thinking maybe I mumbled or they didn't hear, "French,
German?"  They hadn't the slightest idea there was such a thing as a
formal grip, none of 'em.

REALLY NICE THREAD......even the pissing match part.... Kinda like the
old days.

Hey GPS, I know I asked you this once before but maybe I didn't see
your reply if any....
Are you a CCM graduate? I played in an Orchestra about 20 years ago
with a girl named Patsy who was from CCM....Man she took her HINGER
touch tones and
played the sweetest snare rolls ,at all volume levels, I ever heard.

And speaking of H.S. drumlines in Ohio......LANCASTER (directed by
Bruce Gerkin) is hard to beat.

My 2cents,

MN

Kepp up the good work boys.

[gpsman]

Post by n***@zoomnet.net
REALLY NICE THREAD......even the pissing match part.... Kinda like the
old days.

It's been slow around here for a couple years.

Post by n***@zoomnet.net
Hey GPS,
Are you a CCM graduate?

No, I "attended" for a couple years as a HS student. There wasn't a
formal curriculum, and we didn't earn any credits.

Post by n***@zoomnet.net
I played in an Orchestra about 20 years ago
with a girl named Patsy who was from CCM....Man she took her HINGER
touch tones and
played the sweetest snare rolls ,at all volume levels, I ever heard.

Well, what grip did she use...?

Post by n***@zoomnet.net
My 2cents,

I count a cent and a half.

Post by n***@zoomnet.net
Kepp up the good work boys.

Well, I can't blame you for staying above the fray.
-----

- gpsman

[n***@zoomnet.net]

Post by gpsman

Post by n***@zoomnet.net
I played in an Orchestra about 20 years ago
with a girl named Patsy who was from CCM....Man she took her HINGER
touch tones and
played the sweetest snare rolls ,at all volume levels, I ever heard.

Well, what grip did she use...?

I remember her long brown hair.............I remember that she was
very tall..........
I remember that she had a fine shape........I'm a little cloudy on the
other details ;)

MN

[Mark (UK)]

Post by n***@zoomnet.net

Post by gpsman

Post by n***@zoomnet.net
I played in an Orchestra about 20 years ago
with a girl named Patsy who was from CCM....Man she took her HINGER
touch tones and
played the sweetest snare rolls ,at all volume levels, I ever heard.

Well, what grip did she use...?

I remember her long brown hair.............I remember that she was
very tall..........
I remember that she had a fine shape........I'm a little cloudy on the
other details ;)
MN

I think I'd remember if she used a good grip..

;-)

Mark.

[Sean Conolly]

Post by Mark (UK)

Post by n***@zoomnet.net

Post by gpsman

Post by n***@zoomnet.net
I played in an Orchestra about 20 years ago
with a girl named Patsy who was from CCM....Man she took her HINGER
touch tones and
played the sweetest snare rolls ,at all volume levels, I ever heard.

Well, what grip did she use...?

I remember her long brown hair.............I remember that she was
very tall..........
I remember that she had a fine shape........I'm a little cloudy on the
other details ;)
MN

I think I'd remember if she used a good grip..
;-)

Ba-dap crash!

Going back to one of your ealier posts about a good grip while hitting hard,
check out this clip of Mike Mangini, off youtube, from the Time Warp TV
show. They have some nice high speed shots where you can really see what's
happening with the sticks and his grip, and he is definitely not a tippy-tap
drummer :-)

Sean

[Pete Pemberton]

I played in an Orchestra about 20 years ago

Post by n***@zoomnet.net
with a girl named Patsy who was from CCM....Man she took her HINGER
touch tones and
played the sweetest snare rolls ,at all volume levels, I ever heard.

Any idea what year she graduated? I probably know people that know who she is.

PP

[n***@zoomnet.net]

Post by Pete Pemberton
Any idea what year she graduated? I probably know people that know who she is.
PP

That gig was probably in 1985. She was a one time sub for some stuff
that called for a large percussion section. She could have still been
in college or maybe out.
MN

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by gpsman

Post by Pete Pemberton
So just in my experience alone, there are many ways to hold the stick,
let alone how to strike the surface of snares, toms, cymbals and the
myriad shit we have in our collections to make noise and timbres.

Which can't be played with German grip?

Post by Pete Pemberton
To
say there is one grip is ok for beginners, but by high school here in
my area, if you want to be one of the top drummers, you better have a
few grips mastered; matched, catch and release, traditional, four
mallet, et all.

My training and experience suggests fewer drummers have "mastered"
trad grip by graduation than "have it" as Freshmen.
If there's any video of your grip masters demonstrating their
masteries, I think I'd shit myself upon seeing it.
-----
- gpsman

Personally I feel marching snare players needn't use trad grip
whatsoever, but who am I to state such finalities?

Many HS lines require trad when most have just begun to come to 'grips'
with matched, German variations, or American, or Slovakian.

PP

[gpsman]

Post by Chris Milillo

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time. YMMV.

In short, I agree with Pete.

Fascinating.

Post by Chris Milillo
In long...
I was taught the "stick aligns with the arm" German matched grip, too. I
played this way and also taught my students this grip/position for many
years,

There is no proper grip, why inflict such a disservice on your
students?

Post by Chris Milillo
however, a few years back, I began searching for a way to adjust my
grip to make playing more "effortless"

<rolls eyes>

Post by Chris Milillo
and to alleviate cramps I began to
experience in the muscle between the thumb and index finger of my right
hand.
After a lot of observation, research and trial and error, I found

What weight did you place on your advancing years, or faulty
technique?

Post by Chris Milillo
the most
comfortable way to grip the stick is between the thumb and forefinger and/or
middle finger, with the sticks pointing inward toward each other (mine are
between a 45-60 degree angle), and the butt-ends protruding from the sides
of my hands.
I find this "new" grip allows me to be far more relaxed, is more ergonomic,
and allows for excellent finger control.

How convenient.

Post by Chris Milillo
If I had to explain my grip (and I
do every day), here's the boiled down version of it.
* Stand with your arms and hands hanging freely at your sides (without
sticks), completely relaxed. Notice your arms/hands are neither parallel nor
perpendicular to your feet. They are angled inward at my previously stated
45-60 degrees.
(Note*** Think of the principle of the ergonomic "split" (and angled)
computer keyboards... You either love them or hate them, but I got used to
one and it's physically uncomfortable for me to use a normal keyboard
anymore.)
* Lift your hands by bending your elbows, while keeping your wrists totally
relaxed, allowing your hands to loosely hang.
* Insert sticks into the hands at the angle your index, middle, ring and
pinky fingers naturally form (when completely relaxed)
* Loosely apply your fulcrum, with the "back" fingers loosely wrapped around
the sticks.
Your palms will not be facing down, in the strictest sense of German grip,
nor will your thumbs be facing up, as with French grip. I've heard this hand
position referred to as "American grip" and it falls between German and
French, but more toward German.

Fascinating. Are we ever going to arrive somewhere in the vicinity of
"undue stress on the inner wrist"...?

Post by Chris Milillo
In my opinion, this is the most natural grip
and position for matched grip considering gravity and ergonomics.

When you left it was on a quest for effortlessness and cramp relief,
after many years of finding no fault with German...

Post by Chris Milillo
As Pete said, YMMV.

Nope, you're fulla shit, too.
-----

- gpsman

[Steve Turner]

Post by gpsman

Post by Chris Milillo
As Pete said, YMMV.

Nope, you're fulla shit, too.
-----
- gpsman

As I said earlier: "Only ever gruff, all day, every day". Let me guess: The
only one who *isn't* full of shit is... you?

Hey, I'm just a "casual" drummer, so I'm sure my level of technique is nowhere
near that of yours or anyone else in this discussion, but I do have pretty
decent powers of observation, and it seems to me that on almost any instrument
the opportunity exists to transcend the mechanics of any (or all) specific
techniques to the point where you have complete freedom of musical expression.
Musicians in this realm are so "in control" that they appear "out of
control", and I'm sure we've all seen examples of it. Take Keith Carlock for
instance:

The guy seems to defy your every definition of "being in control"; fingers
flying off the stick, wrists changing positions, arms waving every which way.
Surely you wouldn't claim that the guy isn't in complete control of his music?

[gpsman]

Post by gpsman

Post by Chris Milillo
As Pete said, YMMV.

Nope, you're fulla shit, too.

Let me guess:  The
only one who *isn't* full of shit is... you?

Do I seem full of shit?

Hey, I'm just a "casual" drummer, so I'm sure my level of technique is nowhere
near that of yours or anyone else in this discussion, but I do have pretty
decent powers of observation, and it seems to me that on almost any instrument
the opportunity exists to transcend the mechanics of any (or all) specific
techniques to the point where you have complete freedom of musical expression.

More control = more freedom. If you can't play it, I'd suggest you
can't express it.

  Musicians in this realm are so "in control" that they appear "out of
control", and I'm sure we've all seen examples of it.

I'm sure I haven't. What criteria and method/s does one use to
determine such things?

 Take Keith Carlock for
http://youtu.be/uqUq7oFIjRM
The guy seems to defy your every definition of "being in control"; fingers
flying off the stick, wrists changing positions, arms waving every which way.
Surely you wouldn't claim that the guy isn't in complete control of his music?

I'd claim he could play the same thing more or less sitting still
without any arm waving, etc., and exclusively using German grip, to
which he seems to revert for the most technically demanding portions.

Do you really know how much of that might be technique rather than
theatrics?

Check out this guy:

-----

- gpsman

[oldschool]

"At one point I thought I had it sorted and did not used to think
about
it much, but when I started playing more heavy music I realised I was
losing control on harder faster fills and hurting myself a bit when
snapping my hand from one position to another to get to a cymbal after
a
fast fill - and I think generally that's because the back 3 fingers
were
not helping support the stick much. The fulcrum was 90% of the grip
pretty much. I didn't feel I had much meat on the stick."

For this specific issue, you might want to try relaxing the fulcrum
and holding the stick more with the "back" fingers, similar to what PP
describes when he's trying to hit harder. For volume and a "heavier"
sound, you might also try holding the stick closer to the end,
although that may make you work harder to get speed.

Also, if you're trying to get a lot of volume while having the stick
line up straight with your arm and a strict palm-down grip, you may
end up with an uncomfortable amount of wrist flex on the upstroke. By
"uncomfortable", I mean it might hurt, and you could actually damage
your hand. Maybe try rolling your hand part-way to a French (thumb
up) position.

Good luck!

[oldschool]

"God I suck at jazz. Always try to play too much."

You might be interested in checking Ian Froman's lessons on YouTube.
They're part of the Vic Firth lesson series. Froman's a very busy
player himself, but his approach in the online lessons is about
phrasing with the ride pattern and just using the other voices to
support that. Which ends up streamlining and thinning out what you're
playing overall, but still keeping the ideas in place.

It's a good series of lessons, here's the first one:

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by oldschool
"God I suck at jazz. Always try to play too much."
You might be interested in checking Ian Froman's lessons on YouTube.
They're part of the Vic Firth lesson series. Froman's a very busy
player himself, but his approach in the online lessons is about
phrasing with the ride pattern and just using the other voices to
support that. Which ends up streamlining and thinning out what you're
playing overall, but still keeping the ideas in place.
http://youtu.be/Svco860T110

That's exactly me all over like a whitewashed fence from Huck Finn!

Good stuff. My issue is I don't hear these rhythmic figures in the
charts, the 'forward', 'tied' patterns (which I really like) so how
does that mesh with what I hear in the ensemble?

And MY GOD his grip is FN horrible! LOL His ride stick never comes up
and down straight...

PP

[Pete Pemberton]

Post by oldschool
"At one point I thought I had it sorted and did not used to think
about
it much, but when I started playing more heavy music I realised I was
losing control on harder faster fills and hurting myself a bit when
snapping my hand from one position to another to get to a cymbal after
a
fast fill - and I think generally that's because the back 3 fingers
were
not helping support the stick much. The fulcrum was 90% of the grip
pretty much. I didn't feel I had much meat on the stick."
For this specific issue, you might want to try relaxing the fulcrum
and holding the stick more with the "back" fingers, similar to what PP
describes when he's trying to hit harder. For volume and a "heavier"
sound, you might also try holding the stick closer to the end,
although that may make you work harder to get speed.
Also, if you're trying to get a lot of volume while having the stick
line up straight with your arm and a strict palm-down grip, you may
end up with an uncomfortable amount of wrist flex on the upstroke. By
"uncomfortable", I mean it might hurt, and you could actually damage
your hand. Maybe try rolling your hand part-way to a French (thumb
up) position.
Good luck!

And this last is the only point I am making; whichever stick position
you use, the wrist show flow freely and relaxed. If you are
experiencing pain or tightness, something isn't right. I agree
wholeheartedly there is no 'correct' grip for individual players, as I
originally stated YMMV.

PP

[Chris Milillo]

Post by Chris Milillo

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time. YMMV.

In short, I agree with Pete.

Post by Pete Pemberton
Fascinating.

In long...
I was taught the "stick aligns with the arm" German matched grip, too. I
played this way and also taught my students this grip/position for many
years,

Post by Pete Pemberton
There is no proper grip, why inflict such a disservice on your
students?

Because I want to steal their money and teach them bad habits, and also give
assholes like you the opportunity to craft such "clever" retorts.

Post by Chris Milillo
however, a few years back, I began searching for a way to adjust my
grip to make playing more "effortless"

Post by Pete Pemberton
<rolls eyes>

What are you, a 14 year old girl? Did you really roll your eyes? You should
probably roll something else. You might not be quite as crabby and uptight.

Post by Chris Milillo
and to alleviate cramps I began to
experience in the muscle between the thumb and index finger of my right
hand.
After a lot of observation, research and trial and error, I found

Post by Pete Pemberton
What weight did you place on your advancing years, or faulty
technique?

I place the blame on my not warming up properly (or sometimes, not at all)
before hard-hitting gigs, and the subsequent bad habits it brought on. My
advancing years, I'm sure, have something to do with it, as well. I just
hope as my years (hopefully) continue to advance, I never become a cynical,
negative prick like you.

Post by Chris Milillo
the most
comfortable way to grip the stick is between the thumb and forefinger and/or
middle finger, with the sticks pointing inward toward each other (mine are
between a 45-60 degree angle), and the butt-ends protruding from the sides
of my hands.
I find this "new" grip allows me to be far more relaxed, is more ergonomic,
and allows for excellent finger control.

Post by Pete Pemberton
How convenient.

Man, you're just reeling off the witty one-liners, aren't you? It is
actually quite convenient, since you mentioned it. But don't take my word
for it, you're the one with all the answers and I'm "fulla shit" (see
below).

Post by Chris Milillo
If I had to explain my grip (and I
do every day), here's the boiled down version of it.
* Stand with your arms and hands hanging freely at your sides (without
sticks), completely relaxed. Notice your arms/hands are neither parallel nor
perpendicular to your feet. They are angled inward at my previously stated
45-60 degrees.
(Note*** Think of the principle of the ergonomic "split" (and angled)
computer keyboards... You either love them or hate them, but I got used to
one and it's physically uncomfortable for me to use a normal keyboard
anymore.)
* Lift your hands by bending your elbows, while keeping your wrists totally
relaxed, allowing your hands to loosely hang.
* Insert sticks into the hands at the angle your index, middle, ring and
pinky fingers naturally form (when completely relaxed)
* Loosely apply your fulcrum, with the "back" fingers loosely wrapped around
the sticks.
Your palms will not be facing down, in the strictest sense of German grip,
nor will your thumbs be facing up, as with French grip. I've heard this hand
position referred to as "American grip" and it falls between German and
French, but more toward German.

Post by Pete Pemberton
Fascinating. Are we ever going to arrive somewhere in the vicinity of
"undue stress on the inner wrist"...?

Maybe, but you're more likely to arrive (or more correctly, remain) in the
vicinity of "undue stress on the sphincter"

Post by Chris Milillo
In my opinion, this is the most natural grip
and position for matched grip considering gravity and ergonomics.

Post by Pete Pemberton
When you left it was on a quest for effortlessness and cramp relief,
after many years of finding no fault with German...

Yes. And for many years, I also found no fault with punching someone in the
face to solve disagreements, but I've evolved into petty pissing matches
with grumpy old bastards on USENET. I guess you might say I'm a work in
progress.

Post by Chris Milillo
As Pete said, YMMV.

Post by Pete Pemberton
Nope, you're fulla shit, too.

And you're an insecure asshole who gets his jollies from demeaning others on
the internet. Whatever floats your boat, skipper.

CM

[-MIKE-]

Post by Chris Milillo

Post by Chris Milillo

Post by Pete Pemberton

Post by gpsman
It seems to me to be more "natural" and accurate to have the stick tip
aligned with where I naturally point/aim.

I think this position puts undue stress on the inner wrist over time. YMMV.

In short, I agree with Pete.

Post by Pete Pemberton
Fascinating.

In long...
I was taught the "stick aligns with the arm" German matched grip, too. I
played this way and also taught my students this grip/position for many
years,

Post by Pete Pemberton
There is no proper grip, why inflict such a disservice on your
students?

Because I want to steal their money and teach them bad habits, and also give
assholes like you the opportunity to craft such "clever" retorts.

Post by Chris Milillo
however, a few years back, I began searching for a way to adjust my
grip to make playing more "effortless"

Post by Pete Pemberton
<rolls eyes>

What are you, a 14 year old girl? Did you really roll your eyes? You should
probably roll something else. You might not be quite as crabby and uptight.

Post by Chris Milillo
and to alleviate cramps I began to
experience in the muscle between the thumb and index finger of my right
hand.
After a lot of observation, research and trial and error, I found

Post by Pete Pemberton
What weight did you place on your advancing years, or faulty
technique?

I place the blame on my not warming up properly (or sometimes, not at all)
before hard-hitting gigs, and the subsequent bad habits it brought on. My
advancing years, I'm sure, have something to do with it, as well. I just
hope as my years (hopefully) continue to advance, I never become a cynical,
negative prick like you.

Post by Chris Milillo
the most
comfortable way to grip the stick is between the thumb and forefinger and/or
middle finger, with the sticks pointing inward toward each other (mine are
between a 45-60 degree angle), and the butt-ends protruding from the sides
of my hands.
I find this "new" grip allows me to be far more relaxed, is more ergonomic,
and allows for excellent finger control.

Post by Pete Pemberton
How convenient.

Man, you're just reeling off the witty one-liners, aren't you? It is
actually quite convenient, since you mentioned it. But don't take my word
for it, you're the one with all the answers and I'm "fulla shit" (see
below).

Post by Chris Milillo
If I had to explain my grip (and I
do every day), here's the boiled down version of it.
* Stand with your arms and hands hanging freely at your sides (without
sticks), completely relaxed. Notice your arms/hands are neither parallel nor
perpendicular to your feet. They are angled inward at my previously stated
45-60 degrees.
(Note*** Think of the principle of the ergonomic "split" (and angled)
computer keyboards... You either love them or hate them, but I got used to
one and it's physically uncomfortable for me to use a normal keyboard
anymore.)
* Lift your hands by bending your elbows, while keeping your wrists totally
relaxed, allowing your hands to loosely hang.
* Insert sticks into the hands at the angle your index, middle, ring and
pinky fingers naturally form (when completely relaxed)
* Loosely apply your fulcrum, with the "back" fingers loosely wrapped around
the sticks.
Your palms will not be facing down, in the strictest sense of German grip,
nor will your thumbs be facing up, as with French grip. I've heard this hand
position referred to as "American grip" and it falls between German and
French, but more toward German.

Post by Pete Pemberton
Fascinating. Are we ever going to arrive somewhere in the vicinity of
"undue stress on the inner wrist"...?

Maybe, but you're more likely to arrive (or more correctly, remain) in the
vicinity of "undue stress on the sphincter"

Post by Chris Milillo
In my opinion, this is the most natural grip
and position for matched grip considering gravity and ergonomics.

Post by Pete Pemberton
When you left it was on a quest for effortlessness and cramp relief,
after many years of finding no fault with German...

Yes. And for many years, I also found no fault with punching someone in the
face to solve disagreements, but I've evolved into petty pissing matches
with grumpy old bastards on USENET. I guess you might say I'm a work in
progress.

Post by Chris Milillo
As Pete said, YMMV.

Post by Pete Pemberton
Nope, you're fulla shit, too.

And you're an insecure asshole who gets his jollies from demeaning others on
the internet. Whatever floats your boat, skipper.
CM

I know it's been slow around here for quite some time, but this easily
qualifies for Post of the Year, even when it had been much busier.

[gpsman]

Post by Chris Milillo
And you're an insecure asshole who gets his jollies from demeaning others on
the internet.

Straw man. Red herring. False premise. I expose and ridicule those
who purport to be skilled and/or knowledgeable, but are instead full
of shit.

If you are full of shit, do not risk your happiness or self esteem by
purporting on Usenet groups I frequent to possess skill or knowledge
you don't, but I do.

You may or may not have noticed, rather than addressing "undue stress
on the inner wrist" you have attempted to change the subject to me.

This is the point where you can effortlessly avoid further exposing
your ignorance by simply shutting the fuck up.
-----

- gpsman

[Chris Milillo]

Post by Chris Milillo
And you're an insecure asshole who gets his jollies from demeaning others on
the internet.

Straw man. Red herring. False premise. I expose and ridicule those
who purport to be skilled and/or knowledgeable, but are instead full
of shit.

Thanks for the public service, pmsman, self-appointed judge, jury and
executioner. Let's review and see who's really full of shit here, and who's
doing the "purporting".

1) You claim "there is but one correct grip". -- Bullshit. Laughable
bullshit, actually.
2) You say your grip isn't necessarily superior to Moeller -- "Moeller" is
not a grip and does not require, a specific grip. It's a technique.
3) You ask "Tony who?" - Really? No, I mean REALLY?

In my experience, people like you, who put others down as a first instinct,
are rarely, if ever, as good or as smart as they think they are. You're a
cliche. I've seen your type come and go in RMMP for the 15 or so years I've
been here. You hide behind an alias and use your anonymity to treat others
in a way you wouldn't get away with, face to face, or if your words could be
attributed to you. You call your style "tough love". Try again. I was raised
on tough love, both by my family and my instructors. There's a difference
between tough love and "mean-spirited asshole", and you fall into the latter
category.

If you are full of shit, do not risk your happiness or self esteem by
purporting on Usenet groups I frequent to possess skill or knowledge
you don't, but I do.

You can keep beating that drum, but I don't "purport" anything. You're the
one going around saying there's only one correct grip. I just called
bullshit on you and explained in detail another (only slightly different)
grip that I feel is more natural and ergonomic than your "one correct grip".
So please, share with the class. What, exactly, do you feel you've exposed
about me that would qualify as "full of shit"?

Seriously, enlighten me to the things you know that I don't. I know (and
used) your grip for probably 20+ years. Instead of rejecting the concept
that there may be a better or more natural way to hold the sticks, I
observed, investigated, experimented, and found what I feel is a better way.
I explained this technique, in great detail, in hopes that it might help
someone. Instead of saying I'm full of shit, which lets you off the hook for
any critical thinking, tell me exactly how the technique I explained is " a
crazy ass technique", in your or anyone's estimation.

You may or may not have noticed, rather than addressing "undue stress
on the inner wrist" you have attempted to change the subject to me.

You make the subject about you when you act like a spoiled child, every time
someone dares to disagree with you. You're a snarky bastard and your tone is
unnecessarily negative. I just don't suffer assholes gladly. If you didn't
make the ridiculous blanket statement you made, I probably would not have
acknowledged your existence.

This is the point where you can effortlessly avoid further exposing
your ignorance by simply shutting the fuck up.

LOL. My mother told me to shut the fuck up once. ONCE! (Actually, she still
says it, but that's another story). Yes, I'm the ignorant one, who explained
in great detail the evolution of what I (and many others) have determined is
a more natural position for the hands, than a strict german matched grip
with the sticks pointing directly in line with the arms. I'll start passing
out the refund checks to my poor students.

- gps

Lovingly,
CM

[gpsman]

Post by Chris Milillo
And you're an insecure asshole who gets his jollies from demeaning others on
the internet.

Straw man.  Red herring.  False premise.  I expose and ridicule those
who purport to be skilled and/or knowledgeable, but are instead full
of shit.
Thanks for the public service, pmsman, self-appointed judge, jury and
executioner. Let's review and see who's really full of shit here, and who's
doing the "purporting".
1) You claim "there is but one correct grip". --   Bullshit. Laughable
bullshit, actually.

That is just a -sparkling- refutation...

2) You say your grip isn't necessarily superior to Moeller -- "Moeller" is
not a grip and does not require, a specific grip. It's a technique.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=moeller+grip

3) You ask "Tony who?" - Really? No, I mean REALLY?

Orlando...?

In my experience, people like you, who put others down as a first instinct,
are rarely, if ever, as good or as smart as they think they are. You're a
cliche. I've seen your type come and go in RMMP for the 15 or so years I've
been here.  You hide behind an alias and use your anonymity to treat others
in a way you wouldn't get away with, face to face, or if your words could be
attributed to you. You call your style "tough love". Try again. I was raised
on tough love, both by my family and my instructors. There's a difference
between tough love and "mean-spirited asshole", and you fall into the latter
category.

<yawn>

If you are full of shit, do not risk your happiness or self esteem by
purporting on Usenet groups I frequent to possess skill or knowledge
you don't, but I do.
You can keep beating that drum, but I don't "purport" anything. You're the
one going around saying there's only one correct grip. I just called
bullshit on you and explained in detail another (only slightly different)
grip that I feel is more natural and ergonomic than your "one correct grip".
So please, share with the class. What, exactly, do you feel you've exposed
about me that would qualify as "full of shit"?

That's a euphemism. I entice them to expose their full of shitness.

Your detailed explanation was riveting, but the issue isn't whether or
not there is one correct grip, it's "undue stress on the inner wrist".

You've "called" Bullshit, repeatedly, but that's all you've done.
Like so many nitwits you seem to think nothing of substance to support
your assertion is necessary to follow.

Seriously, enlighten me to the things you know that I don't.

You can't teach grip on the internet.

I know (and
used) your grip for probably 20+ years. Instead of rejecting the concept
that there may be a better or more natural way to hold the sticks, I
observed, investigated, experimented, and found what I feel is a better way.
I explained this technique, in great detail, in hopes that it might help
someone. Instead of saying I'm full of shit, which lets you off the hook for
any critical thinking, tell me exactly how the technique I explained is " a
crazy ass technique", in your or anyone's estimation.

I was referring to oldschool's "I have to hold the stick with only one
finger, etc."

You may or may not have noticed, rather than addressing "undue stress
on the inner wrist" you have attempted to change the subject to me.
You make the subject about you when you act like a spoiled child, every time
someone dares to disagree with you. You're a snarky bastard and your tone is
unnecessarily negative. I just don't suffer assholes gladly. If you didn't
make the ridiculous blanket statement you made, I probably would not have
acknowledged your existence.

Right. It's my fault we're still waiting on you to address "undue
stress on the inner wrist".

This is the point where you can effortlessly avoid further exposing
your ignorance by simply shutting the fuck up.
LOL. My mother told me to shut the fuck up once. ONCE! (Actually, she still
says it, but that's another story).

Sounds like good advice...

Yes, I'm the ignorant one, who explained
in great detail the evolution of what I (and many others) have determined is
a more natural position for the hands, than a strict german matched grip
with the sticks pointing directly in line with the arms.

Yeah, now it's you (and many others).

You "discovered" it... ... "After a lot of observation, research and
trial and error". How many people have you got in there, anyway...?

See? You're full of shit.

I'll start passing
out the refund checks to my poor students.

Save it for drum lessons, if you have any interest in learning to
play.
-----

- gpsman

[Chris Milillo]

Post by Chris Milillo
And you're an insecure asshole who gets his jollies from demeaning
others
on
the internet.

Straw man. Red herring. False premise. I expose and ridicule those
who purport to be skilled and/or knowledgeable, but are instead full
of shit.
Thanks for the public service, pmsman, self-appointed judge, jury and
executioner. Let's review and see who's really full of shit here, and who's
doing the "purporting".
1) You claim "there is but one correct grip". -- Bullshit. Laughable
bullshit, actually.

That is just a -sparkling- refutation...

2) You say your grip isn't necessarily superior to Moeller -- "Moeller" is
not a grip and does not require, a specific grip. It's a technique.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=moeller+grip

3) You ask "Tony who?" - Really? No, I mean REALLY?

Orlando...?

In my experience, people like you, who put others down as a first instinct,
are rarely, if ever, as good or as smart as they think they are. You're a
cliche. I've seen your type come and go in RMMP for the 15 or so years I've
been here. You hide behind an alias and use your anonymity to treat others
in a way you wouldn't get away with, face to face, or if your words could be
attributed to you. You call your style "tough love". Try again. I was raised
on tough love, both by my family and my instructors. There's a difference
between tough love and "mean-spirited asshole", and you fall into the latter
category.

<yawn>

If you are full of shit, do not risk your happiness or self esteem by
purporting on Usenet groups I frequent to possess skill or knowledge
you don't, but I do.
You can keep beating that drum, but I don't "purport" anything. You're the
one going around saying there's only one correct grip. I just called
bullshit on you and explained in detail another (only slightly different)
grip that I feel is more natural and ergonomic than your "one correct grip".
So please, share with the class. What, exactly, do you feel you've exposed
about me that would qualify as "full of shit"?

That's a euphemism. I entice them to expose their full of shitness.

Your detailed explanation was riveting, but the issue isn't whether or
not there is one correct grip, it's "undue stress on the inner wrist".

You've "called" Bullshit, repeatedly, but that's all you've done.
Like so many nitwits you seem to think nothing of substance to support
your assertion is necessary to follow.

Seriously, enlighten me to the things you know that I don't.

You can't teach grip on the internet.

I know (and
used) your grip for probably 20+ years. Instead of rejecting the concept
that there may be a better or more natural way to hold the sticks, I
observed, investigated, experimented, and found what I feel is a better way.
I explained this technique, in great detail, in hopes that it might help
someone. Instead of saying I'm full of shit, which lets you off the hook for
any critical thinking, tell me exactly how the technique I explained is " a
crazy ass technique", in your or anyone's estimation.

I was referring to oldschool's "I have to hold the stick with only one
finger, etc."

You may or may not have noticed, rather than addressing "undue stress
on the inner wrist" you have attempted to change the subject to me.
You make the subject about you when you act like a spoiled child, every time
someone dares to disagree with you. You're a snarky bastard and your tone is
unnecessarily negative. I just don't suffer assholes gladly. If you didn't
make the ridiculous blanket statement you made, I probably would not have
acknowledged your existence.

Right. It's my fault we're still waiting on you to address "undue
stress on the inner wrist".

This is the point where you can effortlessly avoid further exposing
your ignorance by simply shutting the fuck up.
LOL. My mother told me to shut the fuck up once. ONCE! (Actually, she still
says it, but that's another story).

Sounds like good advice...

Yes, I'm the ignorant one, who explained
in great detail the evolution of what I (and many others) have determined is
a more natural position for the hands, than a strict german matched grip
with the sticks pointing directly in line with the arms.

Yeah, now it's you (and many others).

You "discovered" it... ... "After a lot of observation, research and
trial and error". How many people have you got in there, anyway...?

See? You're full of shit.

I'll start passing
out the refund checks to my poor students.

Save it for drum lessons, if you have any interest in learning to
play.
-----

- gpsman

Hitler.

[Sean Conolly]

Post by Chris Milillo
I'll start passing

Post by Chris Milillo
out the refund checks to my poor students.

Save it for drum lessons, if you have any interest in learning to
play.
-----
- gpsman
Hitler.

<heavy sigh> Where's Rob when you need him?

:-p

Sean

[Daniel W. Rouse Jr.]

Post by Mark S. (UK)
Hi all,
I know grip varies a lot while playing, but by default - when gripping the
stick and looking down at your knuckles on the top of your hand, does the
butt of the stick tend to appear out of the side of your hand where the
knuckle of your little finger is, or out near the wrist joint?

Out near the wrist joint for me. Near the knuckle of the little finger seems
too much of a stick angle for me to use effectively.

Post by Mark S. (UK)
In other words, does the stick go diagonally across the palm of your hand,
sort of touching the padded bit near the wrist joint held lightly in place
by the pads of the back 3 fingers and almost in line with the rest of your
arm.. OR more across the palm up near the bottom joints of the fingers,
sort of more at a 70 degree angle to your arm?

For me, the stick is just to the side of the "pocket" formed in the palm of
the hand when holding the stick. Just off to the left for the right hand,
and just off to the right for the left hand when using a matched grip.

Post by Mark S. (UK)
If that makes sense ;-)

It makes sense, hope my replies added to the discussion.

Post by Mark S. (UK)
Both feel quest different to me.
I guess this is more relevant to a German / Palms down type grip..

Still relevant to the right hand even if the left is using a traditional
grip position.

[Mark (UK)]

Post by Mark S. (UK)
Hi all,
I know grip varies a lot while playing, but by default - when gripping
the stick and looking down at your knuckles on the top of your hand,
does the butt of the stick tend to appear out of the side of your hand
where the knuckle of your little finger is, or out near the wrist joint?
In other words, does the stick go diagonally across the palm of your
hand, sort of touching the padded bit near the wrist joint held lightly
in place by the pads of the back 3 fingers and almost in line with the
rest of your arm.. OR more across the palm up near the bottom joints of
the fingers, sort of more at a 70 degree angle to your arm?
If that makes sense ;-)
Both feel quest different to me.
I guess this is more relevant to a German / Palms down type grip..
Cheers,
Mark.

Any more thoughts on this

vs this

anyone?

Both are *palm down* pretty much; it's the position of the stick I'm
looking at. One is so in line with the arm, that the butt hits your arm
if you move the wrist down while holding the stick too far up - the
other is slightly off to the side so that it emerges diagonally so your
arm doesn't get in the way of the stick butt.

Mark.


Cheers,
Mark.