Played my first gig with V-drums this past weekend !

Post by f***@aol.com
The guitar player in my band has a very nice studio setup in his
basement, and he owns a set of Roland TD-20S. I've been using them at
rehearsal, and have been loving them. This past weekend, he offered
to bring them out for a gig. I had a great time with these -- so much
fun!
We play classic rock-ish tunes, so the pure musician in me thought it
was freaky to use these to play tunes like Empty Pages or China Cat
Sunflower... there's a stylistic disconnect, for sure. But these
truly sound like mic'd-up acoustic drums. Honestly, most people in
the crowd didn't even notice I was playing an electronic kit.
I can't expect that the guitar player will continue on indefinitely to
be so generous... he made quite the investment in his own home studio,
and quite the investment in these drums as well. I might be lucky
enough to use these a few more times but would feel uncomfortable too
far beyond that. So... it's got me really wondering...
I'd love to pick up a set of my own. The TD-20 is way expensive, so I
may not ever get there. Do any of you have experience with the TD-20
or TD-12, and how do they compare to a Yamaha DTXtreme? I like the
mesh heads, but its not a primary decider for me at all. I'm
wondering, based on sound alone, is one better than the other? Hi-hat
is important too, but I think they both have similar hat setups now
too.
The obvious next step is to get out there and try out both the Rolands
and Yamahas for myself. But I know there are a few of you who have
experience with these, so would be good to hear your thoughts as well.
Thanks in advance!
PaulLundquist
FastLundy

Yes, you should try them all, and read information

http://www.vdrums.com/
http://www.ddrums.com/
"Once considered the Edrum industry leader, the
DDrum electronics have been discontinued by
Clavia. Clavia's electronic DDrum project was
released to their major US distributor - Armadillo
Enterprises in Florida, some time ago. I don't know
what's become of the electronic DDrum since".
http://www.armadilloent.com/

"Often overlooked product(s)"
http://www.retpercussion.us/
http://www.hartdynamics.com/
http://www.alesis.com/en/index.php
http://www.simmons.synth.net/

But, you'll probably only find the Roland's and
a few Yamaha's available for inspection/testing.

Sean Conolly

2009-05-21 04:05:15 UTC

I played a V-Drum set for the first time on stage not too long ago - a one
hour set at a benefit/audtion for a local club. What impressed me the most
is how much better my acoustic kit sounds for how much less money and
effort. They're a blast to play solo, but behind a band they were just in my
way the whole set - I was cursing non-stop.

I think I offended the owner because I gave him an honest answer when he
asked if they changed my opinion of e-drums. Later he made out to one of my
gigs and got to show him what I'm working with, which didn't change his
opinion either but he saw where I was coming from.

If you like 'em more power to ya, but I'm sticking with real drums and mics.
Why go to all the trouble to simulate a real drum when you could just play
one?

Sean

Anonymous

2009-05-21 05:39:02 UTC

In defense of the Edrums, I'm sure you'd agree that
an hour, day, or week is not sufficient play to draw
an experienced opinion.

Personally, I don't think they're appreciated in the
live music venue often. But, it's often the players that
are opposed, rather than the audience.

They both have their place, but migrating from one to
the other quickly can leave bad experiences.

Post by Sean Conolly

I played a V-Drum set for the first time on stage not too long ago - a one
hour set at a benefit/audtion for a local club. What impressed me the most
is how much better my acoustic kit sounds for how much less money and
effort. They're a blast to play solo, but behind a band they were just in
my way the whole set - I was cursing non-stop.
I think I offended the owner because I gave him an honest answer when he
asked if they changed my opinion of e-drums. Later he made out to one of
my gigs and got to show him what I'm working with, which didn't change his
opinion either but he saw where I was coming from.
If you like 'em more power to ya, but I'm sticking with real drums and
mics. Why go to all the trouble to simulate a real drum when you could
just play one?
Sean

-MIKE-

2009-05-21 17:17:47 UTC

Post by Anonymous
In defense of the Edrums, I'm sure you'd agree that
an hour, day, or week is not sufficient play to draw
an experienced opinion.

Sure it is.

Post by Anonymous
Personally, I don't think they're appreciated in the
live music venue often. But, it's often the players that
are opposed, rather than the audience.
They both have their place, but migrating from one to
the other quickly can leave bad experiences.

Playing longer just makes the difference even more profound once you go
back.

It's similar to what I call the "radio effect." You hear a bad song
once, you know it's bad. You keep hearing it over and over again and you
get desensitized to how bad it really sucks.

You play electronic drums long enough and you start to forget what real
drums *feel* like. And that's the real issue. There is so much feel
involved with the aural sense. It's like eating when you have a cold and
have to sense of smell. Everything tastes bland. Filmmakers have known
this for years.

I'm not just talking about subwoofer frequencies, although those the
obvious ones. There are other frequencies you feel in your body when you
hit the toms and kick drum, that are totally absent when playing
electronic drums.

And it's just audio. I won't even get into the tactile differences. ick.

The bottom line is, after you've played e-drums for any length of time,
once you sit down on an acoustic kit, you're treated to an epiphany,
"Oh! *This* is what playing drums is supposed to be like."

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. ALL this is with the stipulation that one is
using *real* cymbals with the electronic drums. If you're using
electronic cymbals... pffft. Forget about it, there IS NO discussion.

--
-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
***@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Anonymous

2009-05-22 00:14:39 UTC

Post by Anonymous
In defense of the Edrums, I'm sure you'd agree that
an hour, day, or week is not sufficient play to draw
an experienced opinion.

Sure it is.

Playing longer just makes the difference even more profound once you go
back.
It's similar to what I call the "radio effect." You hear a bad song
once, you know it's bad. You keep hearing it over and over again and you
get desensitized to how bad it really sucks.
You play electronic drums long enough and you start to forget what real
drums *feel* like. And that's the real issue. There is so much feel
involved with the aural sense. It's like eating when you have a cold and
have to sense of smell. Everything tastes bland. Filmmakers have known
this for years.
I'm not just talking about subwoofer frequencies, although those the
obvious ones. There are other frequencies you feel in your body when you
hit the toms and kick drum, that are totally absent when playing
electronic drums.
And it's just audio. I won't even get into the tactile differences. ick.
The bottom line is, after you've played e-drums for any length of time,
once you sit down on an acoustic kit, you're treated to an epiphany,
"Oh! *This* is what playing drums is supposed to be like."
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. ALL this is with the stipulation that one is
using *real* cymbals with the electronic drums. If you're using
electronic cymbals... pffft. Forget about it, there IS NO discussion.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Well, I can see no one could ever accuse you of
extreme objectivity. <g>

-MIKE-

2009-05-22 01:58:20 UTC

Post by Anonymous

Post by Anonymous
In defense of the Edrums, I'm sure you'd agree that
an hour, day, or week is not sufficient play to draw
an experienced opinion.

Sure it is.

Playing longer just makes the difference even more profound once you go
back.
It's similar to what I call the "radio effect." You hear a bad song
once, you know it's bad. You keep hearing it over and over again and you
get desensitized to how bad it really sucks.
You play electronic drums long enough and you start to forget what real
drums *feel* like. And that's the real issue. There is so much feel
involved with the aural sense. It's like eating when you have a cold and
have to sense of smell. Everything tastes bland. Filmmakers have known
this for years.
I'm not just talking about subwoofer frequencies, although those the
obvious ones. There are other frequencies you feel in your body when you
hit the toms and kick drum, that are totally absent when playing
electronic drums.
And it's just audio. I won't even get into the tactile differences. ick.
The bottom line is, after you've played e-drums for any length of time,
once you sit down on an acoustic kit, you're treated to an epiphany,
"Oh! *This* is what playing drums is supposed to be like."
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. ALL this is with the stipulation that one is
using *real* cymbals with the electronic drums. If you're using
electronic cymbals... pffft. Forget about it, there IS NO discussion.
--
-MIKE-

Well, I can see no one could ever accuse you of
extreme objectivity. <g>

What was nonobjective about my reply? Of course, we are talking
about something that is mostly subjective, aren't we?

I've played them.
I gave an opinion based on experience.
I have no ax to grind, nor agenda to promote.
Everything I said about tactile and aural/physical feedback is objective.

Here's something subjective...
I would rather play a cheap, bad sounding acoustic kit than an expensive
"good" sounding electronic kit. :-)

--
-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
***@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Sean Conolly

2009-05-22 02:29:23 UTC

Post by Anonymous
In defense of the Edrums, I'm sure you'd agree that
an hour, day, or week is not sufficient play to draw
an experienced opinion.

Sure it is.

Playing longer just makes the difference even more profound once you go
back.
It's similar to what I call the "radio effect." You hear a bad song
once, you know it's bad. You keep hearing it over and over again and you
get desensitized to how bad it really sucks.
You play electronic drums long enough and you start to forget what real
drums *feel* like. And that's the real issue. There is so much feel
involved with the aural sense. It's like eating when you have a cold and
have to sense of smell. Everything tastes bland. Filmmakers have known
this for years.
I'm not just talking about subwoofer frequencies, although those the
obvious ones. There are other frequencies you feel in your body when you
hit the toms and kick drum, that are totally absent when playing
electronic drums.
And it's just audio. I won't even get into the tactile differences. ick.
The bottom line is, after you've played e-drums for any length of time,
once you sit down on an acoustic kit, you're treated to an epiphany,
"Oh! *This* is what playing drums is supposed to be like."
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. ALL this is with the stipulation that one is
using *real* cymbals with the electronic drums. If you're using
electronic cymbals... pffft. Forget about it, there IS NO discussion.

Exactly. There's so many subtle textures of tone that you get from a real
kit that no e-kit can produce. On acoustic drums you can play anything from
a slam to a caress and all shades in between, and it's just there - there's
nothing to think about. Losing that is losing a big part of my vocabulary as
a player - it's like trying to play a guitar where the strings don't bend.

Sean

f***@aol.com

2009-05-21 17:13:33 UTC

I'd add that they are a fun part of the drumming *mix*. If I had to
choose one or the other exclusively, I'd stick with acoustic. But
having a real use for 6 or 8 different sounding kits made using these
a blast! Acoustic drums have their advantages too... subtlety,
nuance, power and energy are all important, and none are a strength of
e-drums compared to acoustics. But if you play music that benefits
from having a traditional/open-toned Charlie Watts type sound, heavy
rock, latin toys, and groovy dance beat sounds all in the same night,
the e-drums can't be beat. If you don't take advantage of their
versatility, there's much less of a point to e-drums.

I'm still liking them, with gig #2 now under my belt!

FastLundy
PaulLundquist

B***@oldbob.com

2009-05-22 02:53:41 UTC

I have the TD-8, a small kit, and I can tell you that the speakers you play
through are very important... I've been auditioning speakers for years, and am
always upgrading. Right now I'm building a custom stereo pair and a sub, I've
gone up to 500 watt (1000 watt music) drivers and the difference is amazing. I
used to think the E-cymbals were total garbage but now with a decent compression
horn they are starting to sound better... Can't match my Zildjian's of course
but an audience may not tell the difference.

The other thing is the way you play... rolls on E-drums sound like ass but you
can compensate, use multi-drum rolls instead of staying on one tom and it sounds
much better. Multiple hits on one drum sound like a machine rather than a
resonant drum. I keep the reverb on the toms up high to try and kill the machine
gun effect. If you want a dry sound... too bad!

Of course the best thing about E-drums is the volume control...

-MIKE-

2009-05-22 03:06:13 UTC

Post by B***@oldbob.com
I have the TD-8, a small kit, and I can tell you that the speakers you play
through are very important... I've been auditioning speakers for years, and am
always upgrading. Right now I'm building a custom stereo pair and a sub, I've
gone up to 500 watt (1000 watt music) drivers and the difference is amazing. I
used to think the E-cymbals were total garbage but now with a decent compression
horn they are starting to sound better... Can't match my Zildjian's of course
but an audience may not tell the difference.

But how do the cymbals "feel" to play.
How do they feel on your fingers and the stick response.

Post by B***@oldbob.com
The other thing is the way you play... rolls on E-drums sound like ass but you
can compensate, use multi-drum rolls instead of staying on one tom and it sounds
much better. Multiple hits on one drum sound like a machine rather than a
resonant drum. I keep the reverb on the toms up high to try and kill the machine
gun effect. If you want a dry sound... too bad!
Of course the best thing about E-drums is the volume control...

See, I don't buy that. All the compensation you have to develop in your
playing, all these weird decisions you need to make... why not just play
an acoustic kit... softer.

I can't see paying twice as much for electronic drums, to somehow try to
get the sound of playing softer on acoustic drums. Um, learn to play
softer, maybe? I'm sorry, but that's a "duh."

The ONLY advantage I could see would be for someone who lives in an
apartment and still wants to practice.

--
-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
***@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

f***@aol.com

2009-05-22 14:35:52 UTC

But how do the cymbals "feel" to play.
How do they feel on your fingers and the stick response.

See, I don't buy that. All the compensation you have to develop in your
playing, all these weird decisions you need to make... why not just play
an acoustic kit... softer.
I can't see paying twice as much for electronic drums, to somehow try to
get the sound of playing softer on acoustic drums. Um, learn to play
softer, maybe? I'm sorry, but that's a "duh."
The ONLY advantage I could see would be for someone who lives in an
apartment and still wants to practice.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Take money out of the argument (although its obviously important when
really considering the purchase).

As a player, I totally get what MIKE is saying (and he said it better
than I did). He hits a grand slam for reasons to prefer an acoustic
kit over e-drums -- from the player's perspective. But if you
consider it from the listener's perspective, thinking about what
really serves the music, a bad-sounding acoustic kit (or in many
cases, any unmic'd acoustic kit) is at a disadvantage. A Roland DS-20
or a top-end Yammie DTX kit can sound the same, if not better, than an
acoustic kit through a PA (cymbals too). But I still say if all
you're doing with an e-kit is trying your best to simulate a single/
perfect acoustic kit, its not worth the trade-off to me. I guess its
valid that its easy to throw them on a rack and plug them into a PC,
so they offer some real convenience if you're hitting the road. To
me, if I couldn't leverage their versatility in the music I'm playing
I wouldn't be very interested in them.

PaulLUndquist
FastLundy

-MIKE-

2009-05-22 17:08:38 UTC

Post by f***@aol.com
As a player, I totally get what MIKE is saying (and he said it better
than I did). He hits a grand slam for reasons to prefer an acoustic
kit over e-drums -- from the player's perspective. But if you
consider it from the listener's perspective, thinking about what
really serves the music, a bad-sounding acoustic kit (or in many
cases, any unmic'd acoustic kit) is at a disadvantage. A Roland DS-20
or a top-end Yammie DTX kit can sound the same, if not better, than an
acoustic kit through a PA (cymbals too). But I still say if all
you're doing with an e-kit is trying your best to simulate a single/
perfect acoustic kit, its not worth the trade-off to me. I guess its
valid that its easy to throw them on a rack and plug them into a PC,
so they offer some real convenience if you're hitting the road. To
me, if I couldn't leverage their versatility in the music I'm playing
I wouldn't be very interested in them.
PaulLUndquist
FastLundy

I can understand these benefits, if you're in a cover band playing all
kinds of different songs, playing in all kinds of different venues. I
certainly can see how it could make life easier.

You always know what your drums will sound like, no matter how crappy
the sound system or how clueless the sound guy... if they even have one.

You can have the same toms sounds as Phil Collins on "In the Air
Tonight." You can have the same kick and tom sounds as Def Leopard on
"Pour Some Sugar on Me." Then you can switch over to The Spin Doctors
sound on "Two Princes." Then you can get Charlie Watts on "Honky Tonk
Women" etc, etc.

--
-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
***@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Sean Conolly

2009-05-23 04:02:03 UTC

Post by f***@aol.com

But how do the cymbals "feel" to play.
How do they feel on your fingers and the stick response.

See, I don't buy that. All the compensation you have to develop in your
playing, all these weird decisions you need to make... why not just play
an acoustic kit... softer.
I can't see paying twice as much for electronic drums, to somehow try to
get the sound of playing softer on acoustic drums. Um, learn to play
softer, maybe? I'm sorry, but that's a "duh."
The ONLY advantage I could see would be for someone who lives in an
apartment and still wants to practice.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

I've heard lots of them, and I find that there's maybe one or two kits that
sound pretty good, and the rest of the stuff is junk. Over-processed, over
compressed, over-EQ'd - they might sound good with a DJ but don't mix at all
with a real band. I'll take my kit - even with my cheap mics - over any of
them any day of the week.

Post by f***@aol.com
But I still say if all
you're doing with an e-kit is trying your best to simulate a single/
perfect acoustic kit, its not worth the trade-off to me. I guess its
valid that its easy to throw them on a rack and plug them into a PC,
so they offer some real convenience if you're hitting the road. To
me, if I couldn't leverage their versatility in the music I'm playing
I wouldn't be very interested in them.

For those who love 'em - more power to ya. All that matters is that they do
the job and you like 'em.

Personally, I'd rather mic up a set of cardboard boxes :-)

Sean

B***@oldbob.com

2009-05-23 02:29:05 UTC

But how do the cymbals "feel" to play.
How do they feel on your fingers and the stick response.

E-cymbals have no feel, at least the rubber pad ones I have... real cymbals are
infinitely better except for the volume. Last week I set up my 20" ride on my
TD-8 rack, and started to practice, and as soon as I hit the cymbal I knew I was
in trouble! I had to turn the amp up to about 10 times the amount I usually
practice at in order to balance the sound. Even a gentle rhythm on that Zildjian
can over-power the E-drums.. crash it and the E-drums don't exist, you really
need to up the volume, to a level I don't like to subject my ears to on a daily
basis.

See, I don't buy that. All the compensation you have to develop in your
playing, all these weird decisions you need to make... why not just play
an acoustic kit... softer.

Not possible. I've been hearing that crap since someone in a tea house in 1966
told me I was playing the drums too loud. I gave him a stick and said " OK smart
guy, YOU crash that cymbal quietly".

Post by -MIKE-
I can't see paying twice as much for electronic drums, to somehow try to
get the sound of playing softer on acoustic drums. Um, learn to play
softer, maybe? I'm sorry, but that's a "duh."

No, you're a 'duh'. Hitting drums softly changes their tone, and hitting crash
cymbals softly is impossible. If you knew anything about drums you would know
that the better ones are usually louder than the cheap ones. That's why people
put drums in booths. You ever play Ayottes?

Post by -MIKE-
The ONLY advantage I could see would be for someone who lives in an
apartment and still wants to practice.

That's because you don't see very well...

Now I'm the first person who will tell you that acoustic drums sound better than
E-drums, but that's not the reason to not buy E-drums. But as for advantages to
E-drums? Lets start a list...

Volume control not affecting playing speed or style, play soft or fill a
stadium. Play along with your girlfriends acoustic nylon 6 string, or with the
Stones...

Recordable output, no mics, stands, mixers, EQ units, effects or other crap
required.

100's of kit sounds available, not the one-trick-pony an acoustic set gives you.
Go from heavy rock to tablas with a single button. My set supports chaining to a
set list. Snare cross click one song, rim shot the next.

Sound effects consisting of anything that can be recorded, from Phil Collins
toms to bells to dogs barking.

Accompaniment music built in for practice, including a "click track." Don't know
what a Samba is? Pick one and learn to play it. Includes a drum track with
fader.

Full midi - speaks for itself.

Small size drums, kit fits in a Civic... Improves your aim as well... can
improve speed too since all drums are within 1 foot of each other.

-MIKE-

2009-05-23 03:11:13 UTC

Post by -MIKE-
See, I don't buy that. All the compensation you have to develop in your
playing, all these weird decisions you need to make... why not just play
an acoustic kit... softer.

Not possible. I've been hearing that crap since someone in a tea house in 1966
told me I was playing the drums too loud. I gave him a stick and said " OK smart
guy, YOU crash that cymbal quietly".

No, you're a 'duh'. Hitting drums softly changes their tone, and hitting crash
cymbals softly is impossible.

Not possible, huh? Are you using 20 inch Z Custom crashes or something?
Just because you can't do it, don't say it's "impossible."

I do it several times a month for singer/songwriters, here in Nashville.
A lot of guys do it. And the drums sound fine, the cymbals "crash" just
fine.

I've also seen jazz combos for years, playing in restaurants, playing
skillfully and musically, and you could still have a normal conversation
over the music. The drums sounded great.

You can tune for lower volume playing.

Post by B***@oldbob.com
If you knew anything about drums you would know
that the better ones are usually louder than the cheap ones.

If I knew anything about drums? LMAO.

Ok.

--
-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
***@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

B***@oldbob.com

2009-05-23 20:22:38 UTC

Post by -MIKE-
See, I don't buy that. All the compensation you have to develop in your
playing, all these weird decisions you need to make... why not just play
an acoustic kit... softer.

Not possible. I've been hearing that crap since someone in a tea house in 1966
told me I was playing the drums too loud. I gave him a stick and said " OK smart
guy, YOU crash that cymbal quietly".

No, you're a 'duh'. Hitting drums softly changes their tone, and

hitting crash

Post by B***@oldbob.com
cymbals softly is impossible.

Not possible, huh? Are you using 20 inch Z Custom crashes or something?

I like to crash my 20... but my crashes are an 18" and a 16" Zildjian's (the 18
is real Turkish) and I have a 13 stamped "Mogar" that only works if you smash
it. It gives a "20's" kind of sound.

And you ignored "changes their tone"...

Post by B***@oldbob.com
Just because you can't do it, don't say it's "impossible."

Fair enough...

Post by B***@oldbob.com
I do it several times a month for singer/songwriters, here in Nashville.
A lot of guys do it. And the drums sound fine, the cymbals "crash" just
fine.
I've also seen jazz combos for years, playing in restaurants, playing
skillfully and musically, and you could still have a normal conversation
over the music. The drums sounded great.

I don't DO jazz... I'm rock & roll, and 60s soul, and Hendrix, and hard rock.

Post by B***@oldbob.com
You can tune for lower volume playing.

Maybe you can...

Post by B***@oldbob.com
If you knew anything about drums you would know
that the better ones are usually louder than the cheap ones.

If I knew anything about drums? LMAO.

Good one, eh?

Steve Turner

2009-05-23 03:28:20 UTC

Post by -MIKE-
See, I don't buy that. All the compensation you have to develop in your
playing, all these weird decisions you need to make... why not just play
an acoustic kit... softer.

Not possible. I've been hearing that crap since someone in a tea house in 1966
told me I was playing the drums too loud. I gave him a stick and said " OK smart
guy, YOU crash that cymbal quietly".

Really? Guys like Bill Stewart, Jeff Hamilton, and Jack DeJohnette
might be interested to hear that what they've spent their careers doing
suddenly isn't possible.

Kinda new around here, aren't we Bob?

--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Vince Schaefer

2009-05-23 17:22:22 UTC

I love:
The change in the attitude here over the past ten years towards the
e-drums.
I also love:
The lack of change in the attitude here over the past ten years towards
e-drums.

One thing that I would add......you need to have more than 500 watts behind
you to balance with real drums/cymbals. I have been using two Mackie 450's
for many years. That's bi-amped 900 watts. Actually, 500 could work with the
right sub.

Fro those who can't grasp the volume thing...oh well! E-drums can have
the volume turned down to absurdly low levels while still keeping the sound
of playing regular volume. An acoustic drum needs a certain hit to speak.
(not counting the various nuances of jazz) Once you get a few hundred hours
of recording under your belt, maybe you'll understand. If you use iem's and
still can't grasp this simple point, you're not hopeful. If you think your
cymbals belong in the vocal mics, while the stage is otherwise quiet, you'll
need more time to complete this project.

From a live or recorded standpoint, my TD12's match with my acoustic
kit. Maple kit.....maple e-kit with very little tweaking..... I have an
acoustic floor which is 14", and then two v-s that do 16" to 22" floor toms
depending on what I want. (an acoustic 22" tom would suck your stick in on
the first hit, and you'd never see it again)....anyway; the cymbals also
match. They don't have the general versatility of my K's but that is
overwhelmingly beaten to a pulp because this is more than one kit, and many
samples to choose from etc. etc. e-drums blah blah etc. . Anyway, what I'm
trying to say is that recorded, you can't tell where the acoustics stop and
the v's begin.

I also have hundreds of hours of recordings where you can't tell what's
electric and what's acoustic. (my music went from triggered acoustic kit to
a hybrid, to completely electric and then back to acoustic again) The only
way I have to tell: the cymbals back then had certain pan positions (we can
hide that now) so the one cymbal was obviously to a pan position whereas a
real cymbal is just kinda all over the place on one side of the room. Ya
know a little in this mic, and less in that one, and a lot in this one etc.
etc. Same with yer snare and hat, a lot in this mic and a little in that
one, and hopefully the overheads aren't cancelling anything. Another little
thing, people are saying this and that about rolling with e-drums.....with
my drumKat that wasn't the case. The acoustic maple snare I have now can't
begin to touch how I could play on the kat. I'm looking to buy a good snare
presently, and I'mm seeing that I need to spend a lot to get the kind of
reponse I had with the kat.
Vince

Post by Steve Turner
Kinda new around here, aren't we Bob?

So I guess we ran out of words again didn't we......What if he is new?
Can't we even have the simplest discussion anymore? Everyone has their own
opinion, and of course reasonable people would say everyone is entitled to
their opinion, and mature reasonable people might be able to respect that
and actually get something accomplished in this forum situation.
Unless of course; you think that your opinion is so right and anyone
that disagrees with you so wrong on every single bit of knowledge known to
man. In that case, nevermind.

B***@oldbob.com

2009-05-23 20:47:21 UTC

Post by Vince Schaefer
The change in the attitude here over the past ten years towards the
e-drums.
The lack of change in the attitude here over the past ten years towards
e-drums.
One thing that I would add......you need to have more than 500 watts behind
you to balance with real drums/cymbals. I have been using two Mackie 450's
for many years. That's bi-amped 900 watts. Actually, 500 could work with the
right sub.

You can't add the driver power in a 450 and say it's 900 watts... its 300 watts
RMS with a 100 watt horn.. And speaker volume is NOT determined by watts alone
but with the efficiency rating of the driver and the box. The 450 peaks at
127db. My system equals that (BTW my nephew has a pair of 450s.) And if you drop
the power by half no one would notice, it's only 3 db... so 250 watts would be
fine. Right now I only have a 100 watt amp but I'm going to get an RMX 1850.

Post by Vince Schaefer
Fro those who can't grasp the volume thing...oh well! E-drums can have
the volume turned down to absurdly low levels while still keeping the sound
of playing regular volume. An acoustic drum needs a certain hit to speak.
(not counting the various nuances of jazz) Once you get a few hundred hours
of recording under your belt, maybe you'll understand. If you use iem's and
still can't grasp this simple point, you're not hopeful. If you think your
cymbals belong in the vocal mics, while the stage is otherwise quiet, you'll
need more time to complete this project.
From a live or recorded standpoint, my TD12's match with my acoustic
kit. Maple kit.....maple e-kit with very little tweaking..... I have an
acoustic floor which is 14", and then two v-s that do 16" to 22" floor toms
depending on what I want. (an acoustic 22" tom would suck your stick in on
the first hit, and you'd never see it again)....anyway; the cymbals also
match. They don't have the general versatility of my K's but that is
overwhelmingly beaten to a pulp because this is more than one kit, and many
samples to choose from etc. etc. e-drums blah blah etc. . Anyway, what I'm
trying to say is that recorded, you can't tell where the acoustics stop and
the v's begin.
I also have hundreds of hours of recordings where you can't tell what's
electric and what's acoustic. (my music went from triggered acoustic kit to
a hybrid, to completely electric and then back to acoustic again) The only
way I have to tell: the cymbals back then had certain pan positions (we can
hide that now) so the one cymbal was obviously to a pan position whereas a
real cymbal is just kinda all over the place on one side of the room. Ya
know a little in this mic, and less in that one, and a lot in this one etc.
etc. Same with yer snare and hat, a lot in this mic and a little in that
one, and hopefully the overheads aren't cancelling anything. Another little
thing, people are saying this and that about rolling with e-drums.....with
my drumKat that wasn't the case. The acoustic maple snare I have now can't
begin to touch how I could play on the kat. I'm looking to buy a good snare
presently, and I'mm seeing that I need to spend a lot to get the kind of
reponse I had with the kat.
Vince

Post by Steve Turner
Kinda new around here, aren't we Bob?

Some people think their opinion is fact... all I go by is my 40 years experience
playing. Just because some one thinks he can play anything quietly doesn't mean
anyone can, or even if it's true.

Steve Turner

2009-05-23 22:08:18 UTC

Post by Vince Schaefer

Post by Steve Turner
Kinda new around here, aren't we Bob?

First you snipped the relevant context, then you're putting words in my
mouth. I was giving Bob a bit of shit for his completely groundless "If
you knew anything about drums..." statement aimed at Mike. Anybody who
pops in here making assertions about somebody he doesn't even know is
not going too have much credibility in my book.

And Bob, for your information, I've been playing nearly the same 40
years you have (it's interesting that the extent of your contribution
here is just six posts over the last two days, yet you already feel
compelled to boast about your level of experience), and even though Mike
is about 10 years my junior I'm pretty sure he knows more about drums
than I do. Does that mean anything to you? Probably not... I see
rancor and condescension in five of your six posts; what do you expect
in return? Perhaps you should go out and come back in again; maybe
we'll get off on a better foot the second time around.

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

B***@oldbob.com

2009-05-25 01:03:03 UTC

Post by Steve Turner

Post by Vince Schaefer

Post by Steve Turner
Kinda new around here, aren't we Bob?

Like the assertions you make about me, who you don't know??

Post by Steve Turner
And Bob, for your information, I've been playing nearly the same 40
years you have (it's interesting that the extent of your contribution
here is just six posts over the last two days, yet you already feel
compelled to boast about your level of experience)

I think I wasn't 'boasting' too much, but I've been playing since 65 so I have
some right compared to new kids asking questions. And I've been in and out of
here for 15 years... I see no 'boast's' in my first post.

Post by Steve Turner
, and even though Mike
is about 10 years my junior I'm pretty sure he knows more about drums
than I do. Does that mean anything to you? Probably not... I see
rancor and condescension in five of your six posts; what do you expect
in return?

Maybe you should read all of the posts again - my first post outlined some
things I learned over 10 years of playing E-drums, The remaining posts were
answering FLAMES from the illiterates here who have no reading comprehension.

Post by Steve Turner
Perhaps you should go out and come back in again; maybe
we'll get off on a better foot the second time around.

This is the 3're time I've done that in the last 15 years, I see no reason to
stay - again.

Bye

-MIKE-

2009-05-25 02:48:01 UTC

Post by B***@oldbob.com
Maybe you should read all of the posts again - my first post outlined some
things I learned over 10 years of playing E-drums, The remaining posts were
answering FLAMES from the illiterates here who have no reading comprehension.

Ok, Bob, it all our fault. Does that make you feel better?
Tell you what, our village had an idiot who's left and hasn't been back.
If you'd like to take his place, keep up with the altitude.

Post by Steve Turner
Perhaps you should go out and come back in again; maybe
we'll get off on a better foot the second time around.

This is the 3're time I've done that in the last 15 years, I see no reason to
stay - again.
Bye

You and your attitude won't be missed.

--
-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
***@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Steve Turner

2009-05-25 14:17:04 UTC

Post by Steve Turner
I was giving Bob a bit of shit for his completely groundless "If
you knew anything about drums..." statement aimed at Mike. Anybody who
pops in here making assertions about somebody he doesn't even know is
not going too have much credibility in my book.

Like the assertions you make about me, who you don't know??

I made *one*, a pretty safe one I think, in speculating that you were
"new" here. I've been in here non-stop since around 2003 and as far as
I can recall your participation has been non-existent. It *has* to have
been, given that you don't know who -MIKE- is and you asserted that he
doesn't know anything about drums. He's been in here longer that I have.

Post by Steve Turner
I see rancor and condescension in five of your six posts; what do you
expect in return?

I have, several times. I saw no "FLAMES" from others, only your
attitude, as evidenced by the last half of that last sentence.

Post by Steve Turner
Perhaps you should go out and come back in again; maybe
we'll get off on a better foot the second time around.

This is the 3're time I've done that in the last 15 years, I see no reason to
stay - again.
Bye

Fine. Your loss.

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Sean Conolly

2009-05-23 04:06:56 UTC

But how do the cymbals "feel" to play.
How do they feel on your fingers and the stick response.

See, I don't buy that. All the compensation you have to develop in your
playing, all these weird decisions you need to make... why not just play
an acoustic kit... softer.

Not possible. I've been hearing that crap since someone in a tea house in 1966
told me I was playing the drums too loud. I gave him a stick and said " OK smart
guy, YOU crash that cymbal quietly".

Umm, I play mostly Bospho & Istanbul, thin to paper-thin crashes and when
you get down to a 14" it's no problem to play the crashes quietly - even to
almost inaudible at more than 10 feet.

Get rid of those heavy-ass clangers and buy some quality brass, dude!

Sean

B***@oldbob.com

2009-05-23 20:25:17 UTC

Post by Sean Conolly
Umm, I play mostly Bospho & Istanbul, thin to paper-thin crashes and when
you get down to a 14" it's no problem to play the crashes quietly - even to
almost inaudible at more than 10 feet.
Get rid of those heavy-ass clangers and buy some quality brass, dude!

My Zildjians are top quality and quite valuable, and suit my purpose...

Sean Conolly

2009-05-24 17:20:53 UTC

On Sat, 23 May 2009 00:06:56 -0400, "Sean Conolly"

My Zildjians are top quality and quite valuable, and suit my purpose...

You're the one who said you couldn't play quietly on them, so I guess that's
not one of the your purposes.

Sean

BillRayDrums

2009-05-22 10:20:36 UTC

I do gigs on these at casinos. Best thing you can do is to get an old
digital camera memory card of about 128mb storage (the newer ones will
not work) and save your kit onto the card. Over time, You will create
and tweak the sounds/feels into your perfect sounding "kit". Maybe I
can send up a file of my favorite "stock kit".

f***@aol.com

2009-05-23 17:11:51 UTC

Wow. I'll go ahead and distance myself from Bob now. Sure, I'm pro-e-
drums, but anyone arguing at either of the extremes of the discussion
isn't worth arguing with. It's like saying you're pro-piano and all
organs/keyboards suck. The action is totally wrong, nothing like a
piano, and even the very best digital pianos that try to approximate
the sound, weighted keys and action of a piano are still lame compared
to an actual piano. Now, this is a duh statement! The reasonable
answer really depends on personal preference and application. In some
situations, a digital keyboard is a horribly stupid choice. Just like
for e-drums. And just like e-drums, some keyboards are cheesy or
outright sucky, while a few are excellent. Hope you get my point.

BTW, acoustic drums and cymbals can surely be quiet. I wouldn't play
them while my 2-yr old is napping, but its not at all unreasonable to
make them sound good playing along with an acoustic guitar. C'mon,
Bob.

FastLundy
PaulLundquist

B***@oldbob.com

2009-05-23 20:14:35 UTC

Post by f***@aol.com

Post by f***@aol.com
FastLundy

Wow. I'll go ahead and distance myself from Bob now.

you do that...

Post by f***@aol.com
Sure, I'm pro-e-
drums, but anyone arguing at either of the extremes of the discussion
isn't worth arguing with.

Who's doing that? I have both acoustic (Pearl) and E-drums... I said acoustics
sound better for what they are but E-drums are more versatile. LEARN TO READ!

-snip non sequitur BS

Post by f***@aol.com
BTW, acoustic drums and cymbals can surely be quiet.

Not as quiet as E-drums...

Post by f***@aol.com
I wouldn't play
them while my 2-yr old is napping, but its not at all unreasonable to
make them sound good playing along with an acoustic guitar. C'mon,
Bob.

Where we goin'?

Post by f***@aol.com
FastLundy
PaulLundquist

Benj

2009-05-25 06:21:38 UTC