My time is dragging with some bass players

[martinbr]

Anyone else had this problem. I drag when playing with some bass
players. I usually have good time and practice with a metronome all
the time. But when I get with some bass players, the tempo goes down
and it's really hard to get it back up to where it was when the tune
was counted off.

I get comments on how good my feel is all the time but I know it's
dragging because I can feel it in my playing, and when I ask some of
the players afterward, they have mentioned that it is dragging a
little.

I am going to start to just play with the metronome everyday now. When
I usually play with strong bass players I don't have this problem. But
I still have the problem with even good bass players. It's just a
chemistry thing maybe. btw, this is bebop jazz that I am playing.
Anyone else encountered this problem.
thanks,
Martin

[Frisco]

Post by martinbr
Anyone else had this problem. I drag when playing with some bass
players. I usually have good time and practice with a metronome all
the time. But when I get with some bass players, the tempo goes down
and it's really hard to get it back up to where it was when the tune
was counted off.
I get comments on how good my feel is all the time but I know it's
dragging because I can feel it in my playing, and when I ask some of
the players afterward, they have mentioned that it is dragging a
little.
I am going to start to just play with the metronome everyday now. When
I usually play with strong bass players I don't have this problem. But
I still have the problem with even good bass players. It's just a
chemistry thing maybe. btw, this is bebop jazz that I am playing.
Anyone else encountered this problem.
thanks,
Martin

Yup. Some bass players are a challenge, just as some drummers are.
It's painful to play, or it's like butter... I chose butter.

Paul

[-MIKE-]

Post by martinbr
Anyone else had this problem. I drag when playing with some bass
players. I usually have good time and practice with a metronome all
the time. But when I get with some bass players, the tempo goes down
and it's really hard to get it back up to where it was when the tune
was counted off.
I get comments on how good my feel is all the time but I know it's
dragging because I can feel it in my playing, and when I ask some of
the players afterward, they have mentioned that it is dragging a
little.
I am going to start to just play with the metronome everyday now. When
I usually play with strong bass players I don't have this problem. But
I still have the problem with even good bass players. It's just a
chemistry thing maybe. btw, this is bebop jazz that I am playing.
Anyone else encountered this problem.
thanks,
Martin

I deal with this a lot with singers. If we start with the assumption
that "it's them and not you," there's only so much you can do to try to
keep the tempo up.

In most of my situations, I know it's not me, because I'm either playing
with a click or using a TempoRef. The problem can usually be traced to
the singers not having drums in their monitor. What happens is that
vocals are so loud in their monitors that actually can't hear the drums,
right behind them. Sometimes it's so bad, I just can't reign them in,
even if I play ahead of them. So what sounds better? The drums playing
way out ahead of the vocalists, or the entire band playing the song a
bit slower than normal?

I guess all I can suggest is to try rushing a bit at the right tempo and
see if the bass player hops on board. If not, there's not a lot you can
do. A slow band sounds better than a sloppy band.

[oldschool]

It's hard to say what the problem is without actually hearing you
playing with these guys, but here is my guess.

Some bass players play on top of the time, some right on the time,
some behind the time. And, there is a natural tendency for drummers
to want to lock in with the bass player. So, it *might* be that when
you play with guys who play behind the time, you adjust your playing
to lock in with them, and it pulls the time back.

If that is what is going on, the solution is to keep your time solid
and let them hang behind you. That takes a little different skill set
than playing to a metronome, because you have to develop a comfort
level with the tension that gets created by your accurate time vs the
bass players behind-the-time feel. But if you can get it together,
it's actually a beautiful thing, there's a kind of "push/pull" thing
that happens that sounds and feels great.

Same deal could be happening with Mike's vocalist issue.

Some people like to play on top, some like to play behind. Drummer's
job is to not get swayed by that, and to provide an accurate frame for
other folks to push and pull against. You can also play on top or
behind, but you need to understand that that's what you're doing. You
can't let it make you speed up or slow down.

Good luck!

Post by -MIKE-

Post by martinbr
Anyone else had this problem. I drag when playing with some bass
players. I usually have good time and practice with a metronome all
the time. But when I get with some bass players, the tempo goes down
and it's really hard to get it back up to where it was when the tune
was counted off.
I get comments on how good my feel is all the time but I know it's
dragging because I can feel it in my playing, and when I ask some of
the players afterward, they have mentioned that it is dragging a
little.
I am going to start to just play with the metronome everyday now. When
I usually play with strong bass players I don't have this problem. But
I still have the problem with even good bass players. It's just a
chemistry thing maybe. btw, this is bebop jazz that I am playing.
Anyone else encountered this problem.
thanks,
Martin

I deal with this a lot with singers. If we start with the assumption
that "it's them and not you," there's only so much you can do to try to
keep the tempo up.
In most of my situations, I know it's not me, because I'm either playing
with a click or using a TempoRef. The problem can usually be traced to
the singers not having drums in their monitor.  What happens is that
vocals are so loud in their monitors that actually can't hear the drums,
right behind them.  Sometimes it's so bad, I just can't reign them in,
even if I play ahead of them. So what sounds better? The drums playing
way out ahead of the vocalists, or the entire band playing the song a
bit slower than normal?
I guess all I can suggest is to try rushing a bit at the right tempo and
see if the bass player hops on board. If not, there's not a lot you can
do. A slow band sounds better than a sloppy band.
--
  -MIKE-
  "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
     --Elvin Jones  (1927-2004)
  --
 http://mikedrums.com
  ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

[Sean Conolly]

groups.com... It's hard to say what the problem is without
actually hearing you playing with these guys, but here is my
guess.
Some bass players play on top of the time, some right on the
time, some behind the time. And, there is a natural
tendency for drummers to want to lock in with the bass
player. So, it *might* be that when you play with guys who
play behind the time, you adjust your playing to lock in
with them, and it pulls the time back.

That's all presuming that it's intentional from the other player. Most of
the time when this happens to me is because the bass player has gotten so
comfortable with me keeping time that they've stopped thinking about their
own time.

I've also had a lot of times where one of us is pulling or pushing and the
other one responds in the opposite direction. It may be that the bass player
is pulling back because he feels me pushing. Sometimes it adds an
interesting feel to the song, but it can maker it harder to get a groove
going.

And of course there's a difference between keeping steady time and absolute
time, at the correct tempo. For most of us our perception of the right tempo
is a little fuzzy and can change a lot according to our mood, or whether we
feel tired or fresh. That's where the TempoRef / BeatBug is a handy tool to
tell you the actual tempo you're playing.

But like Mike was saying, at the gig it's better to just try to make it
work. I had one band that had a rule that we never tried to adjust a bad
tempo. If the song was started to fast or too slow it was up to each us to
figure out how to make it work at that tempo, i.e. get creative. Sometimes
that would lead to a fresh approach to a song, and that would become the new
standard for that song.

Sean

[Andy]

Post by martinbr
I am going to start to just play with the metronome everyday now. When
I usually play with strong bass players I don't have this problem. But
I still have the problem with even good bass players. It's just a
chemistry thing maybe. btw, this is bebop jazz that I am playing.
Anyone else encountered this problem.
thanks,
Martin

I've always thought bebop was a prime example of a style where drums and
bass are pushing ahead all the time (though not necessarily speeding up).

If either the drummer or bassist plays "behind the beat" it's
inappropriate for the style, and so is using a metronome really! :)

Andy